Clemens in Blue & Orange?

[nymr83]

Clemens is well loved by johnny-come-lately frontrunners in the bronx, most of those who were fans before '96 (ie about 1% of the total population of "yankee fans") hate the red sock bastard.

I could never root for a man who threw a bat at my team's player and then said "i thought it was the ball." thats like a defendant in a murder trial shooting someone with a shotgun and saying "i swear i thought it was a rifle" in his defense.

if Clemens came to the Mets i would not attend/watch/listen to any of his starts.

[Centerfield]

Can you imagine if Clemens came to the Mets, swiped 18 million and then sucked? Wow. They wouldn't have to tear down Shea. The boos would be so loud the place would crumble.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

I would rather not see Clemens in a Mets uniform. I'd rather be proud of how the Mets won a World Series, than feel that they won by simply buying a title without regard for the individuals they chose to represent the team. As great a pitcher as he has been in his career, I'd rather not have Clemens on my team.

If all that matterd to me was winning at all costs, I'd be pulling for Steinbrenner to buy the Mets.

[Elster88]

I am surprised at the results of this poll. I voted hell no.

Keep Clemens and Rocker off my team. And Clemens' offspring.

[Guest cooby]

I was surprised at the results of my "Bond HR" poll too, Elster, I guess all of our contrasting opinions explains why we have such lively conversations around here.

http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=2921

[smg58]

I had to come back to this thread, as the status of our rotation has changed rather significantly since Friday. I hate Clemens, like I think most of us do, but the Mets are a division leader with a serious problem in the back of their rotation, they do have some money to spend, and it may be tough to find a trade suitor who doesn't ask for Pelfrey or Milledge in return for a lesser pitcher than Clemens. Minaya would not be doing his job if he didn't call up the Hendricks brothers and at least see what it would take.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I will LMFAO if the Mets sign Clemens. I'll even break my guidelines for this season and buy a ticket to watch that. Hell, I'll even spring for a hotdog.

[Guest SI Metman]

Willets Point wrote: Now I'm dressed as Yancy dressed as Staten Island Metman.

Yeah, the Franco look is a good look.

As for Clemens, you gotta do it. You saw what he did the last 2 seasons in the Juice Box, imagine what he would have done at Shea. 12 million for 12 wins and 4 more in October would be well worth it.

[Frayed Knot]

Houston has reportedly offered him $20mil already (not sure if it's an actual $20mil or a pro-rated portion of $20/year).
Whatever the case, $12 ain't gonna get it done.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

And you don't think going an extra 12 mil or 15 mil or whatever at the beginning of the year for a starting pitcher would have made more sense? These guys couldn't figure out a strategy if they were on fire and standing on a diving board.

[Frayed Knot]

What's your point?
Which pitcher was available for $12-15mil at the beginning of the year that you would have wanted? -- Clemens wasn't.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Let's see--I think the Mets had a starting pitcher, now on Baltimore, who they could have kept for less than 15 mil, and probably had a little left over to acquire a middle reliever almost as good as the stud we traded for him.

Or are you now maintaining that there were no starting pitchers they could have acquired on the FA market this past winter for less than 15 mil?

[Guest SI Metman]

Call me when Benson puts up Clemens numbers.

Yeah, they coulda kept him, but he'd be mixed in with mediocrity at the back of the rotation.

Clemens is the frontline guy that the Mets needed.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Clemens is the single most contemptible source of evil in the known universe, too***. To put themselves in a spot where they're relying on Clemens to bail them out of a tough spot suggests, I don't know, a lack of planning? Is this really their finest option? If so, they haven';t explored their previous choices for the rotation carefully enough.

I tell you this: on the night I'm springing to see Clemens's Met debut, I'm bringing a sign that makes a corollary demand: WE WANT ROCKER, TOO

*** Or Bonds, actually. I can't make up my mind, they're both so deliciously twisted. (OE)

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Also GET MIKE JAMES!

[Elster88]

SI Metman wrote: Call me when Benson puts up Clemens numbers. Yeah, they coulda kept him, but he'd be mixed in with mediocrity at the back of the rotation. Clemens is the frontline guy that the Mets needed.

They don't need Clemens at all.

A rotation of Pedro-Glavine-Benson-Trachsel-Garbage is as good as almost any in baseball. Especially since the 4 non-garbage guys are all healthy at the moment.

And all the Mets would be missing now would be a couple extra dollars and Jorge Julio.

[smg58]

Elster88 wrote: They don't need Clemens at all.

You mean they DIDN'T need Clemens at all.

Having a pitcher's wife influence personnel decisions is never a winning strategy, and I'd have no problem arguing that was a really shortsighted trade and Minaya's worst decision since he got here, but the bottom line is Julio is here and Benson isn't. Just like Zambrano is (or until recently was) here and Kazmir isn't. We can lament the deals all we want, but we can't undo them.

So where does that leave the Mets right now?

[seawolf17]

There's a guy -- on the open market -- who won 31 games and struck out 400 guys in the last two seasons. He costs nothing more than a few million dollars; no prospects, no future stars, just dollars. And I know it ain't my money, but Fred and Jeff will sell plenty of orange-and-blue CLEMENS 22 shirts once he starts winning games and striking out Braves and Phillies and Marlins. So I'd say get him the hell in here and see what it would take.

Look -- I hate the fucker too. But if he's going to help the team win games, then I'd say he has to be worth a look.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm afraid I don't understand these references to "blue and orange."

[metirish]

Lets say the Mets offered Clemens $20 million you just know Steinbrenner would go higher, no way he'd let the Mets have him.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

metirish wrote: Lets say the Mets offered Clemens $20 million you just know Steinbrenner would go higher, no way he'd let the Mets have him.

Then why not offer 30 mil, just to make George offer 40?

Because he's not stupid, is why. George would love to see the Mets overpay for Clemens, put with his BS for a season, and blow donkeyballs. Clemens like all pitchers has a certain market value. To bid over that value for the sake of the back page is stupid. With Clemens' baggage with this franchise, I think he has less value here than he does on the open market.

[Benjamin Grimm]

George's moves are not always rational, and frequently do take the back page into account. That contract he gave Randy Johnson is a great example of this.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Was Johnson's signng more back page oriented and less value oriented than Glavine's? You could easily argue that RJ was a better pitcher, coming off a better year.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I dunno. I hate Clemens, but seawolf has some good points. If we're NOT going to put Heilman in the rotation or promote Pelfry or Soler to fill our #4 hole, signing a solid pitcher who won't cost us any prospects is a smart move.

Clemens for 1 year - $22M > Zito for 1 year - Milledge

I think it's a moot point, though, as there's no way Clemens comes to Queens. It'll be Texas or nothing.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Was Johnson's signng more back page oriented and less value oriented than Glavine's? You could easily argue that RJ was a better pitcher, coming off a better year.

Sure. But don't forget Yankees gave up players (Vazquez, Navarro and Halsey) and money (paying Vazquez salary PLUS a contract extension & raise) for Johnson who since joining the team has been performing worse than Glavine.

The Yanks might have had the better timing to try and jam a veteran all-star onto the team but neither move has worked out perfectly and one was certainly more expensive than the other.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Also, when Glavine pitched his first game for the Mets, he was a few weeks past his 37th birthday. When Johnson first took the mound for the Yankees, he was more than 41 and a half.

[Guest old original jb]

I voted no on Clemens for purely emotional reasons. You have to draw a line somewhere. I know intellectually that the idea that we are not rooting for corporate laundry is a myth, but paying Clemens to pitch for the Mets would just make me face that reality on gut level every five days--something no fan should ever have to do. It would be like telling the proverbial little kid there's no Santa Claus.

For those knocking the lack of forsight of the Benson trade:

1) hindsight is 50/50
2) If Julio continues in his current form, a very mediocre and expensive starter looks a lot more replaceable to me than the third anchor of the best middle bullpen in the league.

I think I'm going to start the MRPAS (Middle Relief Pitching Appreciation Society).

[Elster88]

]For those knocking the lack of forsight of the Benson trade: 1) hindsight is 50/50

For me, at least, this is not hindsight. ;-) I don't know why everyone didn't realize that someone in the rotation was going to get hurt at some point.

]2) If Julio continues in his current form, a very mediocre and expensive starter looks a lot more replaceable to me than the third anchor of the best middle bullpen in the league

I disagree completely, for the following reasons:

A rotation is not going to go injury-free the entire year. It'd be nice to have a mediocre starter to replace the hurt guy instead of a John Maine, Jose Lima, Jeremi Gonzalez, or two guys with a combined 3 starts at a level above A ball.

Benson is really not that expensive. "Very mediocre starters" go for a lot these day, and are actually quite hard to find.
See: Benson Bunch archived thread and, http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=3262&start=36

]On the free agent market 8 - 12 million per year has been getting you AJ Burnett Kevin Millwood Jarrod Washburn Matt Morris Jeff Weaver Kenny Rogers

Anyway you slice it, we have two big question marks out of 5 starters. (I include Bannister.) Out of Bannister, Maine, Lima, Gonzalez, Heilman, Pelfrey and Soler, there are exactly zero proven major league starters (Lima stopped being a proven ML starter two years ago). Whatver you want to call Benson, you have to admit he is a proven major league starter. Would you rather have four starters be proven major leaguers or have a (for the sake of argument, we'll use "very good") a third very good setup man?

On top of that, our other three guys are older fellows, with one being a very average pitcher. You don't think one of them is going to go down at some point this year? Pedro misses three weeks every year. At that point we've got a question mark filling in for our stud, instead of the current situation (a question mark filling in for a question mark).

[Guest Iubitul]

I voted no for completely emotional and visceral reasons - I would probably walk away until he slinked off into the sunset.

[Willets Point]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I will LMFAO if the Mets sign Clemens. I'll even break my guidelines for this season and buy a ticket to watch that. Hell, I'll even spring for a hotdog.

Are you doing an ambler now and boycotting the Mets? I guess I can't meet up with you for a game like we did last season (seriously, that was pretty fun).