Joe Torre praise thread

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Sure, he's a sleazebag, and a liar, and an apologist for EES (Evil Empire Scumbaggery) and a million other reprehensible characterstics, but he does have some virtues.

For one, I think he's skillful at manipulating the media, especially M&MD. When he chats with them, he never comes off as petulant or smug (as Willie did in yesterday's interview), but he makes it seem as if he's really trying to give them honest answers. You have to admire his facility at evading tough questions, and at spinning the most ludicrous scenarios as having some grounding on planet earth. he never gets mad on the air, which is a big improvement on Willie.

For example, where MD said that Trax was just a better pitcher than Zambrano yesterday, and Willie answered, "That's your opinion"? Torre would have glided on past the difference of opinions and said something like "Well, Chris, I think they're both strong pitchers, each with different levels of accomplishment, each with different levels of potential. You could go either way with these two pitchers and you;d probably have a real good case to favor either of them. I think my way is fair to both, and I hope I can keep both of these fabulous athletes happy in their jobs this season. It's always a problem having too many talented players and scheduling problems to work out so they both get to play at their very best, and I have to struggle to do that."

MD's response probably would have been "Okay, Joe, that's fair," instead of leaving Willie out to dry like he did. It was pretty cruel.

[Elster88]

I've noticed Willie being a little snippy with many media-members. Especially anyone who dares question him.

"I know my team best" is a horrible response. I wish MD had responded to that with "Ok, if you know them best, explain what makes him better".

[Frayed Knot]

Torre's work as a member of the media - for the Angels between his Atlanta & StL managing stints - certainly prepared him to deal with things from the other end of the mike.

[seawolf17]

He's not as ugly as Willie McGee. Or The Elephant Man.

[Elster88]

Old joke:

Who are the two best managers in the history of the American League? Joe Torre and Casey Stengel

Who are the two worst managers in the history of the National League? Joe Torre and Casey Stengel

[metirish]

I think from now on we should refer to him as Mr Torre.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

As opposed to what? Mademoiselle Torre?

Which reminds of someone's description of a hideously ugly woman in BALL FOUR as "Joe Torre with tits."

[Willets Point]

Elster88 wrote: Old joke: Who are the two best managers in the history of the American League? Joe Torre and Casey Stengel Who are the two worst managers in the history of the National League? Joe Torre and Casey Stengel

As often as it's trotted out, I still love the Warren Spahn quote: "I'm probably the only guy who worked for Stengel before and after he was a genius."

[nymr83]

thats actually pretty good

[MFS62]

He's better looking than his sister.

Later

[Willets Point]

He can teach us where to buy great looking clothes!

[G-Fafif]

="Willets Point"]He can teach us where to buy great looking clothes!

JOE TORRE FOR BONDS! Be still my heart.

Nice find.

[metsmarathon]

why do i not think "great-looking clothes" when i think "joe torre"?

[Guest martin]

for the teams that i am a fan of, i dont really care how good the coach is at dealing with the media. for all i care they can make the media hate them and constantly feed them lies.

i think "i know my team best" is a good response. i would actually like it even better if he threw in a fun insult. who cares. i am fan of baseball, not public relations.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I think from here on out, my assumption is "If Martin thinks it, I think the opposite. And very strongly." It's a principle that so far seems to apply to Dick Cheney's admission to Heaven, to PR spin by baseball teams, to the question of my continuing to post...Martin's the Bizzaro Sal

P.S. Martin, in baseball, we usually call them "managers," not "coaches."

[Elster88]

]i think "i know my team best" is a good response. i would actually like it even better if he threw in a fun insult. who cares. i am fan of baseball, not public relations.

Even when what the manager thinks is wrong? Or is whatever he thinks automatically correct?

[Guest martin]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I P.S. Martin, in baseball, we usually call them "managers," not "coaches."

i was talking about all sports, so i used to term coach since most sports call them that. when i typed that i knew you would correct me, but i also knew i wouldnt mind.

] Even when what the manager thinks is wrong? Or is whatever he thinks automatically correct?

no, i mean i dont care how he manages the media, right or wrong, i dont care if he smoothes over his relationship with the media. i do care that he is right, but i dont care if he convinces WFAN if he is, or if he even makes an effort.

[Elster88]

] ] Even when what the manager thinks is wrong? Or is whatever he thinks automatically correct? no, i mean i dont care how he manages the media, right or wrong, i dont care if he smoothes over his relationship with the media. i do care that he is right, but i dont care if he convinces WFAN if he is, or if he even makes an effort.

I feel the same way, but I think he's in for a lot of headaches if he keeps getting snippy with the media.

[Guest martin]

Elster88 wrote: I feel the same way, but I think he's in for a lot of headaches if he keeps getting snippy with the media.

i guess that is true, but i can see how it also might be relaxing to say whatever you feel like to the media instead of having to say what they want you to say so they are nice to you.

if a guy creates an adversarial relationship with the media, or he doesnt, as a fan of baseball, it doesnt make much of a difference to me. if a guy is perpetually annoyed with the media, and that is apparent in his interviews, i don't blame him, they probably are annoying.

[Willets Point]

G-Fafif wrote: JOE TORRE FOR BONDS! Be still my heart. Nice find.

I can't take credit for the find. KC found it ages ago and in fact I linked the image hosted on his website.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think that if the Yankees can give up Torre and get Bonds, they should do it.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Edgy DC wrote: I think that if the Yankees can give up Torre and get Bonds, they should do it.

Nah, they should give them Bobby Murcer...Oh wait...

What year is this? =

[metirish]

Bobby Murcer is worse than Fran Healy ever was, he is the worst.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

="metirish"]Bobby Murcer is worse than Fran Healy ever was, he is the worst.

Heh! Nice highjack

By the way, if you want to throw praise Torre's way, there is a book by Dean Chadwick (or something like that) written a few years back called Damn Yankees which is a usual anti-Yankee tome, there have been more interesting and "professional' (hardcover and from mainstream publishing houses) since

Well anyway there is a part in the book where Torre is slammed for the fact that Davey Johnson, Bobby Cox and Tony LaRussa went to the postseason after taking the reigns of Torre piloted teams

This is extremely laughable

-Mets, Davey Johnson was the third man tabbed as skipper after Torre and crew were cleaned out. And by that time Cashen was allready building the team in his eyes, not to be confused with Torre/McDonald's era. By the time the Mets were decent hardly any of the Mets were around whom were managed by Torre. And the year the Mets won it all, lets see:
Wally Backman, bit player in the end of the Torre years a Davey favorite
Mookie Wilson, came into his own the final year of Torre's tenure
Lee Mazzilli, okay this is now one soild "Torre years guy"
Jesse Orosco, didn't find himself until the Bamberger year played in just 26 games as a Met under Torre
Terry Leach, another one year guy
Ed Lynch, again was riding the Tidewater express in 80-81

Not exactly Davey Johnson winning "with Torre's Guys"

Okay, now lets see the Atlanta years shall we?

Hmmm this is interesting (oh Sal, this is where CRAP FROM THE PAST can be used in agruments for or against something someone expouses as truth and gospel) Torre actually took over a middling Bobby Cox coached squad. Cox coming off a 50-56 1981 (after going 81-80 in 1980) is hired in Toronto and Torre takes over and the team goes 89-73 and wins Atlanta's first Divisional crown since 1969, it would be their last untill 1991! Torre is not horrible in Atlanta, not sure why he was canned.
88-74 the next year, okay 80-82 in his final year 1984, and they did fall to 3rd in the division that year. The Braves did fall apart soon after and fell into the decline that caused the regime change to the current setup. Bobby Cox, now back as GM, steps back into the dugout and finshes the 1990 season, and lets look at his very first division team in 1991:
Just one, Rick Mahler, wrapped up his career though with 13 games as a Brave, not on the postseason roster
Well unless you count Juan Berenguer's 16 games from 1978-1980 with the Mets!
Turning back to Cox's return in 1990 gives you Dale Murphy though before being traded in August to the Phillies

Thats right, THREE guys managed by Joe Torre either as a Brave or with the Mets. Not exactly Cox winning with Torre's guys. You could make a strong case though that Torre's stay in Atlanta mirrored his days in New York, only his third year in pinstripes was much better than his third year in Atlanta! Basically bringing a team that seems to need to get over a little hump for whatever reason and bring that team to the promised land

Now we go to St Louis
Now here, and only here can any point be made about someone winning with Joe's players. Torre takes over the reigns from Whitey Herzog, flounders around .500 from 91-93, 1994 the wheels fall apart and 1995 Torre fails to finish the year. Enter LaRussa! The Geunsis is able to get the Cards to win their first of 5 Central crowns under his leadership in 1996. Though still only one NL crown to show for it, LaRussa's Cards are putting quite a run in the last 10 years.
Interesting to note though, there were quite a number of changes though going forward between 95 and 96. An overhaul of the infield, which included Ozzie Smith regulated to the bench! Willie McGee was brought back into the fold, along with several ex-A's Mike Gallego, Dennis Eckersley and Rick Honneycutt. Also two new starters were brought in at the top of the rotation, Andy Benes and Todd Stottlemyre. While not a complete overhaul, you might actually be able to make a case that the 1996 Cardinals were more of a LaRussa team than a Torre team!

So the argument that Torre was merely a placeholder, or someone who could only take a team to a certain point and someonelse had to take them farther is complete bull crap!