Booing Beltran, Split from 4/06 IGT

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

It's stupid to interpret what BOOOOO means in a very specific verbally-complex way and to fail to realize that maybe other people mean other things by it. I think Edgy is beginning and ending with the assumption that booing translates into something very like "You suck, I hope you die soon, I hate you and I hate your children, and I wish you to suffer eternally." If that were the case, I can see where Beltran would feel all put-upon and victimlike and such.

But my impression of what most booers would translate their rude noises into is "I'm very disappointed by what you've shown so far as a Met, Carlos. You can play better than that. Maybe you've been too banged up to perform optimally, but we've got a high level of frustration going on here, and we want you to know that we expect more out of you and we watch the games very closely, so we will notice when you perform well, and we would prefer to make loud positive noises if only you'll give us something to cheer about, so please get your game together and let's enjoy a great season."

If you go on my assumption, which I think is closer to the truth, you've got nothing to feel all snottily superior to the rabble at Shea about, even if you don't boo yourself, as I don't and as I'm pretty sure Edgy doesn't.

[soupcan]

Centerfield wrote: Exactly. Not booing doesn't necessarily mean being "coddled". That would imply that fans of all other teams "coddle" their players. All I'm saying is I don't see why we would choose to treat our players in a worse manner than fans of other teams. And I don't buy that garbage about New York being a "tough town". Acting like a jerk is acting like a jerk no matter what your zip code is. The booing of Beltran and Matsui and Benitez...these cases went beyond simply booing bad play. This sort of booing is mean-spirited and makes me want to disassociate myself with "fans" of this team.

Sorry I think I'm a post behind here - you guys are coming fast and furious.

Never booed Matsui or Benitez. As a matter of fact I was a big Benitez defender thinking that those who were booing him based on performance were stupid because, as you well know CF, his numbers were great.

I may be acting like a jerk if I boo him but I think the guy telling me not to boo him because he'll feel bad is an idiot.

[soupcan]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: "I'm very disappointed by what you've shown so far as a Met, Carlos. You can play better than that. Maybe you've been too banged up to perform optimally, but we've got a high level of frustration going on here, and we want you to know that we expect more out of you and we watch the games very closely, so we will notice when you perform well, and we would prefer to make loud positive noises if only you'll give us something to cheer about, so please get your game together and let's enjoy a great season."

Instead of booing at the next game I'm going to memorize this and scream it instead.

[Centerfield]

It occurs to me that some fans might not be booing, but rather urging Carlos to "Re-MOOOOOOOVE" that mole.

[Centerfield]

soupcan wrote: I may be acting like a jerk if I boo him but I think the guy telling me not to boo him because he'll feel bad is an idiot.

By the way, I don't mean to call you a jerk. I feel like I should mention that when you're there, it is really, really easy to get sucked into the moment. I booed Zambrano last year before realizing what I was doing.

And I'm not saying you shouldn't boo because Carlos will feel bad. I'm saying don't boo because it hurts the team. Because it might make other free agents wary of coming here, and quite frankly, I want a guy who is sensitive if he'll hit 40 HR's and drive in 120.

And there are those fans that boo to be mean spirited. The ones that boo-ed Jorge Julio on Opening Day before he ever threw a pitch for the Mets. The ones that boo-ed Benitez and Matsui mercilessly. This is the crap I can't stand. I'm saying they shouldn't boo because they're acting like jerks.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Or maybe some loyal fans are saying "Hey, it's getting kind of old to keep cheering shitty-to-mediocre baseball year after year and finishing out of the money. Get your shit together already. If you keep spending money on players who can';t play, if you keep trading away those players who maybe can and hanging to those who definitely can't, and tripping all over yourself to pay them top dollar for underperforming, and charging us good money to see these fraudulent results, I'm going to find some more satisfying ways to spend my time and money. If you think the sound of my voice booing is bad, I think you'll find the complete absence of my voice around here even more annoying."

It's been known to happen.

[soupcan]

TheOldMole wrote: I grew up in the "Let us pray for Gil Hodges" days. I don't boo a guy in a slump.

A lot's changed since those days Mole (Carlos?).

Athlete's incomes, attitudes, etc. In Hodges' day ballplayers were playing to pay the rent and feed and clothe their families and could relate much more easily to the average fan.

]By the way, I don't mean to call you a jerk. I feel like I should mention that when you're there, it is really, really easy to get sucked into the moment. I booed Zambrano last year before realizing what I was doing.

I hear you, never thought that anyway. No worries.

[Elster88]

] I think Edgy is beginning and ending with the assumption that booing translates into something very like "You suck, I hope you die soon, I hate you and I hate your children, and I wish you to suffer eternally." If that were the case, I can see where Beltran would feel all put-upon and victimlike and such.

For many out there, I'd say this is what "boo" translates into.

Didn't booing originally start with booing the villian in theater?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I yelled "Yan-kees suck!" at RFK last year before I really realized what I was doing. It was meant as a goof, but would have gotten stupid and embarassing if we were around a more Met-friendly crowd.

[Elster88]

If I had been there yesterday, I probably would've gotten sucked into the "CAR-LOS BEL-TRAN" chant. But I hope that type of chant doesn't happen regularly at Shea. Even though I think it's cool.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Or maybe some loyal fans are saying "Hey, it's getting kind of old to keep cheering shitty-to-mediocre baseball year after year and finishing out of the money. Get your shit together already. If you keep spending money on players who can';t play, if you keep trading away those players who maybe can and hanging to those who definitely can't, and tripping all over yourself to pay them top dollar for underperforming, and charging us good money to see these fraudulent results, I'm going to find some more satisfying ways to spend my time and money. If you think the sound of my voice booing is bad, I think you'll find the complete absence of my voice around here even more annoying." It's been known to happen.

Why would anybody who feels that way pay $50 to get into the ballpark?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Force of habit? Being almost there but not quite? Feeling conflcted? Having kids who ask to be taken? Wanting to hang out with a friend?

I've gone feeling all of these, and more, the last few seasons, and may catch a game or two yet this season, though so far I'm pretty firm about not ponying up the 50 bucks.

[A Boy Named Seo]

ESPN caught one douche bag mercilessly booing Beltran and I was able to easily read his lips as he mouthed, "This guy fuckin' sucks". Of course the douche bag was wearing a Carlos Beltran jersey.

I wanted Beltran to screw the boobirds and not take a curtain call, but knew it'd be more trouble in the end, and glad he did (even though it may end up being just as much trouble because everyone knows he hesitated).

The last line from the Daily News Beltran story was this quote:

"Every time you get booed, it doesn't feel good," Beltran added. "If anyone says it doesn't (feel bad), they are lying. What can I do? I just do my best."

Knowing that it affects him negatively, why the hell would fans of the team want to pile on this guy?

Signed,

Confused in California

[Elster88]

]why the hell would fans of the team want to pile on this guy?

Some loyal fans are saying "Hey, it's getting kind of old to keep cheering shitty-to-mediocre baseball year after year and finishing out of the money. Get your shit together already. If you keep spending money on players who can';t play, if you keep trading away those players who maybe can and hanging to those who definitely can't, and tripping all over yourself to pay them top dollar for underperforming, and charging us good money to see these fraudulent results, I'm going to find some more satisfying ways to spend my time and money. If you think the sound of my voice booing is bad, I think you'll find the complete absence of my voice around here even more annoying."

________________

Yep. Still looks ridiculous. (to me - I don't want to disparage anyone's feelings)

[Elster88]

It's too bad that this discussion is going to get buried in the IGT Archives.

OTOH, we've had this same "Booing - Yay or nay" discussion at least 50 billion times.

[soupcan]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: "I'm very disappointed by what you've shown so far as a Met, Carlos. You can play better than that. Maybe you've been too banged up to perform optimally, but we've got a high level of frustration going on here, and we want you to know that we expect more out of you and we watch the games very closely, so we will notice when you perform well, and we would prefer to make loud positive noises if only you'll give us something to cheer about, so please get your game together and let's enjoy a great season."

I think this one is much better. It's either going to get me tossed or get me on TV. I'm gonna do it though.

[Gwreck]

soupcan wrote: I don't know that that's true. If you believe the slate gets wiped clean on Opening Day that's cool.

It has to, doesn't it? A guy can't be having a bad season before it starts.

Even if there's serious problems from the past, he's still not having a bad year/a slump/a bad patch until at least a few games go by.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Remember how all of the so-called experts were saying that there would be no pressure on Beltran this year? I knew that was jive. If anything there's more pressure, because two bad years in a row means that he's doomed in New York.

Have a huge April, Carlos. You'll be able to put all this behind you.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I love when fans pretend that "Boo!" is a word with so many meanings that the player ought to know precisely which one.

Soupcan says: Boo.

Soupcan Means: "I'm very disappointed by what you've shown so far as a Met, Carlos. You can play better than that. Maybe you've been too banged up to perform optimally, but we've got a high level of frustration going on here, and we want you to know that we expect more out of you and we watch the games very closely, so we will notice when you perform well, and we would prefer to make loud positive noises if only you'll give us something to cheer about, so please get your game together and let's enjoy a great season."

Johnny Mookfuck says: Boo

Johnny Mookfuck means: I'm a cruel self-satisfied mouth-breathing shithead. If I knew which car was yours I'd slash your tires. Then I'd bang your wife. Regardless, I'm going home to beat mine.

Carlos Beltran hears: Boo

Q: What message does Carlos Berltran get?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Whoever said this stuff is fully rational? My parents used to have an expression, "I hate this guy from the last picture," about an actor. If a guy played a villain the last time you saw him a movie, the irrational (but perfectly normal) reaction is to let some of that hostility carry over to this one, where he may be playing a good guy.

Actions have consquences, right? It's unreasonable for Beltran to have a bad season, and be thinking, "2006 gets me a fresh start." No, not really, Carlos. If that's what you're telling yourself, you're in for some unpleasant surprises. Which is kind of how he's reacting. "What bad season? I haven't had any season so far." Hello, McFly?

[Guest Edgy DC]

A few posts I failed to split off

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Bret Sabermetric
364) Jerrod Riggan RP, 2000-2001
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1379
Location: purely theoretical
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject:

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="Johnny Dickshot"]I love when fans pretend that "Boo!" is a word with so many meanings that the player ought to know precisely which one. Soupcan says: Boo. Soupcan Means: "I'm very disappointed by what you've shown so far as a Met, Carlos. You can play better than that. Maybe you've been too banged up to perform optimally, but we've got a high level of frustration going on here, and we want you to know that we expect more out of you and we watch the games very closely, so we will notice when you perform well, and we would prefer to make loud positive noises if only you'll give us something to cheer about, so please get your game together and let's enjoy a great season." Johnny Mookfuck says: Boo Johnny Mookfuck means: I'm a cruel self-satisfied mouth-breathing shithead. If I knew which car was yours I'd slash your tires. Then I'd bang your wife. Regardless, I'm going home to beat mine. Carlos Beltran hears: Boo Q: What message does Carlos Berltran get?

Which translation fits better with giving an ovation for a HR, Dickshot? Your Johnny Moonfuck version is not only mean but schizophrenic: "I hate you but I'm going to applaud you because of what you just did, then I'm going to push the 'hate you' button again."

Whereas the more nuanced first translation says, "Good. You finally did something positive. Good for you. Now keep it up because I really don't want to go back to that BOOing crap again. Hurts my throat."
_________________
“Le tigre est très méchant: quand on l'attaque il se defend.”

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Johnny Dickshot
181) Mike Vail OF, 1975-1977
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 3417
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject:

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Answer my question first.
_________________
Woof.

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Bret Sabermetric
364) Jerrod Riggan RP, 2000-2001
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1379
Location: purely theoretical
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject:

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It's my problem he's incapable of reading the fans in a subtle way?
_________________
“Le tigre est très méchant: quand on l'attaque il se defend.”

[soupcan]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I love when fans pretend that "Boo!" is a word with so many meanings that the player ought to know precisely which one. Soupcan says: Boo. Soupcan Means: "I'm very disappointed by what you've shown so far as a Met, Carlos. You can play better than that. Maybe you've been too banged up to perform optimally, but we've got a high level of frustration going on here, and we want you to know that we expect more out of you and we watch the games very closely, so we will notice when you perform well, and we would prefer to make loud positive noises if only you'll give us something to cheer about, so please get your game together and let's enjoy a great season." Johnny Mookfuck says: Boo Johnny Mookfuck means: I'm a cruel self-satisfied mouth-breathing shithead. If I knew which car was yours I'd slash your tires. Then I'd bang your wife. Regardless, I'm going home to beat mine. Carlos Beltran hears: Boo Q: What message does Carlos Berltran get?

Who cares what message Beltran gets? He hears Boooo! Boooo means bad. Do better, I'll stop.

Again - why are we acquiescing to superstar overpaid athletes overly sensitive sensibilities?

Its really strange to me that people care so much about these players feelings. Barry Bonds makes millions and treats people like crap. Tiger Woods same thing. These guys think that because they make so much money that they are important and that they are allowed to be assholes. What's the fans response? Booo. If they are going to get their feelings hurt by a boo then they are in the wrong business. Maybe they should get a new job.

But wait! Auto mechanics don't make $13,000,000.00 per year. Hmmmm, maybe underperforming pro athlete wasn't such a bad deal. Well they DID boo me and made feel bad. But I had a fleet of porsches and 5 mansions.

Boy this is a tough decision.

C'mon people let's get over ourselves. No ones killing babies here. All we're doing is expressing disappointment. Sorry but they should be able to handle it.

="Gwreck"]It has to, doesn't it? A guy can't be having a bad season before it starts. Even if there's serious problems from the past, he's still not having a bad year/a slump/a bad patch until at least a few games go by.

Last season carries over.

[Guest Edgy DC]

i think a distaste for unjustified abuse by thousands of people isn't peculiar to "superstar overpaid athletes overly sensitive sensibilities," but pretty common to the human condition.

Why "cater" to it? Decency and the interests of advancing your team's marker are two reasons.

Without getting into Bonds's case and Woods's, neither is Beltran.

[soupcan]

I think calling booing a professional athlete at an arena or stadium 'unjustified abuse' and 'indecent' is going a bit far.

I'm also a bit skeptical that booing or cheering affects a teams won/loss record.

Neither is Beltran what?

[Guest silverdsl]

soupcan wrote: C'mon people let's get over ourselves. No ones killing babies here. All we're doing is expressing disappointment. Sorry but they should be able to handle it.

Athletes for the most part likely have thick skin because they've heard all sorts of critcism from the fans, the media and sometimes even their teams if they aren't performing. But they are still human beings and I don't think a stadium full of people booing is always that easy to shrug off. Everyone, I don't care who they are, wants positive reenforcement, wants to feel like they are liked and that they are doing things right.

Personally, I don't boo players but I respect the right of other fans to do so. That said, I wish that some fans would give players more of a chance to do right before they turn on them, particularly in a new season. I am not just talking about Mets fans here - Yankee fans are ripping apart some players and the team right now too and if the Yankees were playing at home I'm quite sure that there would be plenty of boos on that side of town as well.

[duan]

christ we have this conversation too often.
WHAT, do you precisely hope to gain by booing your own player.
The only time i can see it's anyway justifiable is if it's clear that player is not putting in a reasonable amount of effort on the field of play or has very questionable professional conduct. I don't think I ever seen ANYONE question Beltran's professionalism and work ethic therefore I just can't accept that this is anything but idiocy.

It is MUCH more likely to hinder a players performance if he's regularly roundly derided by people who should be his supporters. Naturally he'll start playing with fear - anyone who thinks that kind of reaction isn't mentally stressful is a complete moron.

Similarly, it isn't exactly going to help the mets get trade value for him if other teams can see he's being run out of town so it's not actually going to help the team in that regard either is it?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

You could also look at it like this:

The interaction between fans and athletes is highly restricted, for understandable reasons. 100,000 fans have something to say for every athlete who even wants to make eyecontact with a fan. So they open themselves to very limited channels of communication, mostly conducive to encounters that they're then free to consider rude on the face of them--run ins in restaurants, or shouting unsubtle messages from the cheap seats. Then they interpret these messages not as being inherently limited but as if the fans chose to scream from section 588B instead of voicing what he would otherwise say in a face-to-face setting that is considerate of the athlete's humanity.

Fuck it. If you limit me to screaming at you, that's what I'll do.

Or what I would do, if enjoyed screaming.

[duan]

if you hate them that much why do you bother going/watching/listening/posting.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

duan wrote: if you hate them that much why do you bother going/watching/listening/posting.

Not booing (which is my actual practice) is kind of lame and passive aggressive, doncha think? "I hate the way this player performs but instead of getting to discharge my emotions, I'll just keep coming until I no longer want to, and you'll never have a clue as to what I found dissatisfying about the experience."

Wouldn't it be more honest to have them thinking "Jeez, that David Wright really rubs the fans the wrong way. Maybe now would be a good time to move him, or convince him to change his shitty attitude or something, becue the fans were really razzing him and this can only get worse unless we do something."

[Guest Edgy DC]

]'unjustified abuse' and 'indecent' is going a bit far.

Well, it sure seems unjust when you boo Carlos Beltran because of Barry Bond's behavior.

]I'm also a bit skeptical that booing or cheering affects a teams won/loss record.

We'll have to find a way to test it. Certainly there's reams of testimonial support for the notion. Maybe JB can find a psyche paper.

]Neither is Beltran what?

Sorry. Neither Barry Bonds nor Tiger Woods is Carlos Beltran.