Questions for Frank Thomas

[Guest FrankThomas]

MFS62 wrote: Frank, a few questions, with the understanding that I haven't read your book yet: You started out with the Pirates: Was Branch Rickey the General Manager? What was he like? Did you get any advice from Ralph Kiner? What was it? Kiner left the Bucs in 1953. Did they leave up Kiner's Corner in left field, or did they revert to the old dimensions - 365 feet down the left field line? If they did, your homer totals playing half your games in Forbes Field were very impressive. Later

In two short words, Branch Rickey was "no good". But, here's the long version -- still shortened somewhat from the detail in which I tell it in my book. I was already with the Pirate organization when Rickey joined the franchise in 1950. He signed a 5-year contract as vice president and general manager. The sole purpose of him joining the Pirates was to deliver us from the second division of the National League and maybe work some of the magic he had done in St. Louis and Brooklyn. I didn't know much about him except what was put out to the general population, so I didn't give it much thought. I came to learn, however, that he was much different than the public perception. We got off on the wrong foot right away in 1951 when I refused to sign the contract he offered me. He tried to sign me for the same salary I had made at Charleston in 1950, and I thought I deserved a raise after turning in a good season down there. While we negotiated over the next few weeks I received a good dose of the Rickey technique -- emphasize the negative aspects of your game and ignore the positive. Sometimes I'd go to see him only to find a sign on the door to his office that said, "Mr. Rickey is too busy!" Rickey got to a point where he wouldn't talk to anybody about me because he was mad at me, and it looked like I wouldn't play that season, but my manager at Charleston, Rip Sewell, stood up for me. Rip was moving up the ladder to manage the Pirates' New Orleans affiliate, and he told Rickey he wanted me to play for him there. Rickey told Rip that if he wanted me then HE had to call me because Rickey wouldn't talk to me. Rip called me and advised me to sign -- without a raise, but Rickey had promised that he'd take care of me next season if I had a good year. So, after rejecting six contracts, I signed. Despite putting up good numbers in New Orleans in 1951, Ricky often took negative shots at me in the press. When the end of the season rolled around and Rickey asked Rip who he should call up for the last few weeks, Rip suggested me. Rickey reluctantly obliged, despite the fact that I could help the Pirates. I feel he often let his ego stand in the way of the best decision to help the team win. My problems with Ricky cropped up again during spring training in 1952. To avoid another contract problem I had signed an undervalued contract with a small pay raise in January of 1952, but when I got to spring training Rickey was very critical of me. He said I was too heavy. I was heavier, but it was because he had suggested that I put on some offseason weight to counter the trend that I had of losing weight over the course of the long season. After watching me play during the early exhibition season he said that I wasn't the same player I used to be. I thought it was just his way of going after me for skipping an optional rookie camp in favor of playing winter ball in Puerto Rico. Then he decided to not to play me very often for the rest of the exhibition season and NOT to move me up, something I felt I had earned. He sent me back to New Orleans. I was angry, but I decided to work hard to put together such a good season at New Orleans that Rickey would have no choice but to bring me back up, despite the fact that he disliked me. I ended up having a huge year down at New Orleans -- 35 home runs. The press back in Pittsburgh was calling for me to be brought up to help the Pirates' anemic offense, but Rickey wouldn't budge. He finally buckled and had me called up at the conclusion of our season in New Orleans when it was too late to help the Bucs. That winter I went in to see Rickey about my 1953 contract. I reminded him of my big season at New Orleans in 1952 and the undervalued contract I had signed, then I asked him for a raise. "I can't pay major league salaries to minor leaguers," was his reply. The headline in the papers the next day quoted me saying, I WANT A RAISE OR I WILL QUIT. I lost, though. I was eventually given the ultimatum to sign for what they were offering or be cut to the major league minimum, so I signed. In spite of my solid exhibition season, Rickey was again reluctant to put me on the Pirates roster at the start of the 1953 season. But thanks to growing media pressure and Pirates manager Fred Haney pushing my cause, I made the team. After a rocky start I ended up turning in a good rookie campaign that saw me hit 30 home runs. When I went in to see Rickey about my 1954 contract, I was ready. "I'm a big leaguer now, Mr. Rickey," I told him, "and I want to be paid accordingly." I named my salary, which included a sizeable raise, but was ultimately talked into taking a few thousand less than I wanted -- with the promise that he'd take care of me next season if I could turn in another good year. I shouldn't have trusted him after having been burned on that one in the past, but I was still naïve. So I signed. Meanwhile, there was no more Kiner's Korner at Forbes Field in 1954. Too many other teams (as opposed to the Pirates) were taking advantage of it's inviting 335-foot dimension to the leftfield foul pole, so they tore it down. That meant it would now take a 365-foot poke to clear the leftfield wall, not to mention the 40-foot tall scoreboard that sat on top of it, and that was where my power was. Rickey told the press that he wasn't worried about a possible drop-off in home runs by me -- he said that hitting .300 would be more valuable to the team. So I hit .298 with 23 home runs and 94 RBIs. That set the stage for relations between me and Rickey to hit an all-time low prior to the 1955 season. The first contract offer I received from Rickey called for the same salary I received in 1954. I returned it unsigned because I felt I had turned in a good season and deserved a raise. It was quite a while before we had a face-to-face meeting, but when we did it was a tense one. I called him out for not delivering on his promise. Rickey, as usual, pointed to the negative -- my drop from 30 to 23 homers. I mentioned his statement about hitting .300, and I told him to put Kiner's Korner back up and I'd hit him 50 homers a year. We were far apart in our salary squabble, and I told him I couldn't sign. He said fine -- he'd keep me out of baseball for five years. Details of our standoff made its way into the papers. That irked Rickey greatly, but he, too, was responsible for many of the leaks. My next meeting with him was an explosive one. He called me to his office, and with a swipe of his hand knocked everything off his desk. He then chastised me for talking to the press. I left without signing. I held out for 17 days before signing for much less than I had asked for. While I was out he sent me many nasty letters, unsuitable for repeating here. I couldn't believe the things he called me in those letters. Our relationship, nearly completely destroyed, was finally ruined beyond all repair when Rickey forced Fred Haney to play me while I was battling a serious illness at the beginning of the season. I struggled through that period and got off to a terrible start, and the press blamed him. He eventually called me in to see him and mentioned that the press was blaming him for my bad start. I told him that I'd warned him when I signed that he was signing an unhappy player -- plus I mentioned that he'd forced me to play when he knew I was sick. Maybe he was feeling some guilt, because he then revealed to me that he was leaving the organization at the end of the 1955 season. He promised to tell whoever replaced him NOT to cut my salary no matter what type of season I ended up having the rest of the way. It was too late, though. "I don't want any favors from you," I told him. "You know how I feel about you after the way you've treated me -- I have no respect for you. I'll take my lumps this season, but when the new general manager comes in and I have a good year, we'll work from there." I was very happy to see him follow through and step down following the 1955 season. He had dominated my career in a very negative way since he had come on board in 1950. I have absolutely nothing nice to say about him. I called him a liar, a cheat, and a hypocrite right to his face -- and he never responded because he knew I was right. I believe every move he made in baseball was to satisfy a personal goal -- not necessarily for the good of the club or baseball in general.

On to Ralph Kiner. Kiner was the longtime slugging hero of Pittsburgh, so he wasn't overly warm to me -- a new young slugger -- when I fist crossed paths with him at spring training in 1950. I was excited at being with the big leaguers, and one day I bent down and picked up one of Kiner's bats from a pile near the dugout. "That's my bat," I heard someone say, "and rookies don't touch it." I turned around and saw that it was Kiner. He eventaully warmed up a little and offered some advice. He told me to watch how the pitchers pitched him because they would probably pitch me the same way.

As for "Kiner's Korner", or "Greenberg Gardens", or whatever you want to call it, it was there for the duration of my first full year in 1953. That meant it was 335-feet down the leftfield line. They tore it down after the season, so I never had that target again while I was in Pittsburgh. It was then 365-feet down that line with the 40-foot scoreboard on top of the wall. In other words, it took a heck of a drive to hit it out down there. I wish I knew how many 360-foot outs I hit there. Nellie King, a teammate of mine in Pittsburgh who went on to broadcast with the Pirates for many years, often said he thought I'd have been a 500-homer guy had I played in a park like Ebbets Field.

[MFS62]

Frank,
Thank you very much for spending the time to write that detailed answer to my questions.

Your description of Branch Rickey was in keeping the reputation he had about player salary negotiations while he was in Brooklyn.
And I agree that your career numbers were dramatically hurt when they took down the inside fence at Forbes Field. I wasn't too sure when they had removed it.

Wishing you and yours a happy and healthy New Year.
Later

[Guest Edgy DC]

And that's the short version.

Buy the book, peeps.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Wow!

Another GM with a reputation for ferocity at contract time was George Weiss. I imagine he must have treated you fairly well after 1962 (at least he should have), but what about 1963? I know some of your Met teammates (Throneberry & Woodling) had their troubles with Weiss and both were soon gone.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Cool fact: Thomas hit the last homer at the Polo Grounds during the Giants tenure there and hit the first one when the park was re-opened as the Mets' home.

[Frayed Knot]

Well Frank, even if you had your differences with Ralph Kiner, the one thing you have in common is your opinion of Branch Rickey. Ralph (who still does NY Met TV on a limited basis (as he did while you were playing here) repeats similar stories about dealing with Rickey. The line he often uses is that Rickey controlled all the money and all the players ... and did everything he could to keep the two apart.

Anyway, thanks so much for taking the time to do these chats with us. You've obviously put a lot of thought into your answers which leads me to believe that your book will be a good read. I hadn't heard about it prior to this but now it's on my list of things to complete before the winter is out.

[Zvon]

Yes, Ive heard Kiner tell the same stories of how he was shortchanged and given the runaround contract wise with the Pirates. And mistreated.

Thank you for sharing that candid and detailed response Mr Thomas.

You have my utmost respect.

[Theoldmole]

Dick Young's nickname for Rickey was "El Cheapo."

I just ordered Frank's book.

[Theoldmole]

Just about to order it. Should I go to Amazon, or is there a more direct route so more of the profits go to Frank?

[Guest Edgy DC]

The link on the front page of UMDB (also in this thread) was provided by Mr. Thomas's co-author (or publicist or somebody) so I'd go through that.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

I just ordered my copy.

[Guest KC]

Re-reading the thread this morning, great stuff. If we can get more Mets
to do a Q & A (which I'm sure we will), Frank's detail and gentlemanlike
posts will be hard to top.

Thanks again, and best for 2006 from The CPF.

[Theoldmole]

Found and ordered from the Philadelphia Athletics site.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I wanted to mention this yesterday, but I forgot. I ordered my copy giving my middle name as "Cranepool"--it would be great if others sharing my middle name could do likewise.

[Guest KC]

Kinda hard to do when the middle initial on your credit card isn't a C.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

My e-mail receipt seemed to indicate that they had no problem that my name didn't match the name on the credit card. I'll let yuz know if the book doesn't arrive or anything, but it seems to have gone through ok.

[Guest Edgy DC]

And it wasn't just cranky old Rickey. Many years earlier, Johnny Mize hit .349 in 1939, tops in the league. Legend has it that he was excited to talk to Rickey, who had stonewalled him in previous contract talks. But he got merely a modest raise, with Rickey noting "Well, your home-run production stayed pretty much the same."

The next year, Mize goes nuts on the ball, hitting 43 homers, 15 more than the previous year, and his career high. Rickey noted that his average dropped to .314 and asked him to take a cut.

The sad part is that the anti-trust exemption baseball had gave the Rickeys no motive to operate any differently. The players had no right to move within the league, the league had tons of leverage to block any wildcat leagues and to keep players from jumping to one, and by artificially limiting the number of franchises, supply of talented players was kept high. Rickey, having built the largest farm system, usually had a steady supply of replacements for any player with the moxy to stand up to him.

[Guest FrankThomas]

Frayed Knot wrote: Hi Frank T., Thanks for taking the time to "talk" to us. There's been an increased interest in recent years in a more in-depth anaysis of baseball statistics. While you were playing, which of your own stats were you consistantly aware of and paying attention to, and do you know if there were any particular ones that the club was tracking in order to measure your worth?

I always set a goal in spring training that I wanted to hit .300, 20 to 25 home runs, and drive in 100 runs. As far as the club management, they always seemed to look at your on base percentage. They would definitely discuss your average, home runs and RBIs, too, but on base percentage was very important to them. Branch Rickey would focus on the statistic that best suited his desire NOT pay you the salary you wanted. In other words, he might tell you before the season that he was looking for you to hit X number of home runs. If you reached that total and pointed that out in your contract negotiations the next season, Rickey might say something like, "Yes, you reached X number of homers, but you average dropped X points!" You couldn't win with him.

[Guest FrankThomas]

Edgy DC wrote: Having read some of your book, Mr. Thomas, a few more questions regarding race in baseball occur. You describe going to Forbes Field in your childhood, not just to see the Pirates, but also to see the almost legendary Homestead Grays teams. Understanding that a child may not notice what an adult notices, can you tell us what was the atmosphere like at the Grays games, and how it differed from that at the Pirates games? Did the black and white patrons sit in the same sections? Approximately what percentage of the crowd was black and what percentage white? Also, having seen Josh Gibson as a child, can you compare him as a hitter and a catcher to the stars you would go on to play with and against as a big league player? Lastly, your legacy is mostly linked to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Have you continued to follow the team? What is your opinion on the current state of the team --- how they've been disadvantaged in part by the latter-day state of baseball economics; and how they've attempted to revitalize their presence with the new stadium? Have you been back much to see the team at Three Rivers Stadium or PNC Park? Thanks again.

To be honest, the attendance wasn't great at the Homestead Grays games that I saw at Forbes Field. But of the crowd they did draw, I seem to remember it being pretty evenly mixed between white and black because the Grays had a pretty good club. A lot of the racial stuff just went over my head because I was caught up in the baseball. Those games left an incredible impression on me because of the talent level of the players I saw play, and the Grays had some very good players at that time. I just loved baseball, so it didn't matter to me whether I was watching great negro league players like Josh Gibson or whether I was watching white big leaguers like Rip Sewell. Both men hold a very special place in my heart. Rip helped me greatly as my manager down at Charleston in the minors, but long before that he'd made a great impression on me while he was a pitcher with the Pirates. As a kid I used to wait outside the Pirates clubhouse, hoping to meet players and get autographs. Rip came out after a game one day and got a look at me waiting there, dirty with ripped-up pants. He asked me how my pants got torn, and I told him playing baseball. Well, he put his arm around me and walked me a couple of blocks, just talking about various things. It was great. I told Rip about it after I joined his Charleston team in 1950, and he couldn't believe it. Josh Gibson holds a warm place in my memories because he gave me the first two baseballs I ever owned when I was just a kid. I was down at the railing yelling to him and he heard me and tossed me those two baseballs. The chase was on when the other kids saw me get those balls. I had to run a gauntlet of boys trying desperately to get them from me, but I made it home with my prized possessions. I'll never forget that. The current owner of the Pirates honored Josh Gibson at a game a few years ago. Gibson's son was there to accept the honor, so I went down to meet him. It was nice -- plus I got a Josh Gibson bobblehead doll! As far as how Gibson ranked against big league catchers, I'd say he was right there on a level with Roy Campanella. Both of them were good catchers, and both of them were good hitters. I saw Gibson hit two long homers over the 457-mark at Forbes Field -- both in the same game that he gave me my two baseballs.

I've always supported the Pirates, back when they were at Three Rivers Stadium and now that they're at PNC Park. I saw 13 games this past season -- they won three of them and lost 10. I think the Pirates should have done five years ago what they're doing today -- they should have brought the kids up, let them play and take their lumps. If they had done that, they'd now have a pretty good ballclub. You have to carefully mix veterans in with kids, but the veterans that they brought in were not the kind of players that suited their needs.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Frank Thomas for Pirate GM.

[Theoldmole]

Rickey was a pioneer SABRmetrician -- I remember an article he wrote in Life explaining why batting average was an outmoded statistic and we needed to concentrate on things like OBP. It makes perfect sense that he'd do it to have more negative stats to concentrate on in contract negotiations.


Once again. Frank Thomas...wotta guy!

[MFS62]

TheOldMole wrote: Rickey was a pioneer SABRmetrician -- I remember an article he wrote in Life explaining why batting average was an outmoded statistic and we needed to concentrate on things like OBP. It makes perfect sense that he'd do it to have more negative stats to concentrate on in contract negotiations.

He took note of OBP?
Then those early contract negotiations with Roberto Clemente must have been fun. Roberto had a total of 100 BB in his first five major league seasons.
That's probably the only thing Rickey had to use against him in those negotiations.

His agent must have countered by asking why Rickey took him in the Rule V draft in the first place.
Wish I was the proverbial fly on the wall when those negotiations were taking place.
Or did players even have agents in those days?

Later

[Benjamin Grimm]

It doesn't look like it. I'm up to 1957 in Frank Thomas' book, and he's always been doing his negotiating himself.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

I think that agents are a relatively recent phenomenon. Didn't Bouton discuss the emergence of agents in Ball Four? If so, then they didn't exist until the mid to late 60s, at the earliest.

[seawolf17]

Agents are more recent. It's mentioned in Crasnick's [u:7c9d032d9d]License To Deal[/u:7c9d032d9d] book about Matt Sosnick.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

I looked over Ball Four, where Bouton talks about negotiating for himself with the Yankees and with the Pilots. Then I rediscovered Lords of the Realm by John Helyar, which is a book Edgy gave D-Dad a while ago. I am pretty sure that this book documents the emergence of agents in baseball.

On Edit - on p. 24 of the Helyar book, he discusses the 1965 Koufax-Drysdale holdout, and mentions how they hired Bill Hayes, a "Hollywood agent." It was noteworthy that the two had an agent - I'll peruse the book a bit more, but it seems like this may have been the first instance of baseball players hiring an agent to represent them in negotiations.

On Further Edit - without re-reading the whole book, Chapter 15 discusses the relationship of salary arbitration to agents. The early to mid '70s seems to be the time period that agents became part of the baseball landscape.

[Benjamin Grimm]

It did seem strange reading about how Frank Thomas, just a few years into his 20's, was negotiating on his own with Branch Rickey. I think many of the younger players would have their dads or somebody negotiate for them, but even a 50-year-old dad probably won't have the negotiating skills of a seasoned GM like Branch Rickey.

Many fans hate free agency (I don't), but Frank's book reminds us of how unfair the old system was.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Wikipedia has this -

] * Sports agents By the 1970s a new generation of sports agents were hawking the talents of players who knew baseball but didn't know how the business end of the game was played. The agents broke down what the teams were generating in revenue off of the players' performances. They calculated what their player might be worth to energize a television contract, or provide more merchandise revenue, or put more fans into seats.

[Frayed Knot]

Agents weren't used for the simple reason that owners/GMs could and would refuse to talk to them. The teams had all the power and the player had no recourse to force them to deal with a representative.
So, except for unusual cases like Koufax/Drysdale -- who held out in tandem in an attempt to force the issue -- it wasn't until the FA era, when teams suddenly had to deal with players who had other options, that the use of an agent became a staple.

[MFS62]

The first baseman on my college team said he wanted to become a sports agent. His name was Barry Poris. That was in the mid 60's. In the 70's I noticed his name in an article as a player's agent. It was a Tiger, not big star (which is why I can't think of the player's name right now). Looking back on those Tiger teams, it might have been John Wockenfuss. And even if it wasn't, it was fun to type that name again.

Later