Gather the wood. . .time to fire up the Stove!!

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Of course not.

Of course not.

]Anything he said to the GM prior to the trade was said behind closed doors.

So that should stop you from putting anything in quotes.

]But there were countless news stories after the deal that said he gave a lot of input to the decision.

Which, of course, he should have. Lots of people gave input. He's a convenient scapegoat, although others are blaming Al Goldis.

]Some said it was because Peterson thought Kasmir couldn't contribute imediately because he feels a pitcher needs 500 innings in the minors to get ready.

This is a theory we do have quotes on, because he's spoken at length about it. This is not something that was merely said to the GM behind closed doors.

]Some said he felt Kasmir's throwing mechanics would cause arm injuries.

Which we have no quotes about. What we do have is much publicity about Rick Peterson going to great lengths to work with pitchers to have an efficient motion that reduces stress on the arm. So, looking for a scapegoat, we can use this to jump to the conclusion that Peterson balked at Kazmir because he found his motion counterproductive.

What Peterson has actually stated is that pitchers out of high school, by definition, are a risky investment, which is legitimate input that nobody's countered with data.

]Some said it was because of his size; that he wouldn't have the stamina to be an efective starter.

I don't know that we have anything at all about Peterson arguing this. Even if we had a second-hand statement --- such as, "Insiders have Peterson arguing..." --- specuation that a 20-year-old's frame may not be suitable to him being a starter have nothing to do at all with the fitness of Billy Wagner, a ten-year veteran relief pitcher, to be a relief pitcher.

]I'm sure you read all those stories.

No, I didn't.

]But this is like asking me to quote Dick Cheney when he advised dubya to invade Iraq.

No, that's a terrible analogy.

]Actual quotes aren't available.

I can probably find 1,000 quotes of Dick Cheney openly discussing Iraq policy and the wisdom of it.

]And I'm pretty sure you knew that when you asked for a quote.

Believe me, Dick Cheney was not on my mind.

]And based on those stories, it was my hyperbolic interpretation of something he might have said.

So, we don't have anything. Got it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Googling "rick peterson" + kazmir + "too small"

Seventy three hits. I'll take the first ten.

Tim Marchman at New Partisan says, "Kazmir is simply too small to be a starting pitcher in the major leagues, and he may be too small to be any kind of pitcher at all."

That's the author talking.
__________________

Second is another link to the same piece.
__________________

Third, I have a forum (Addict Baseball and Football Forum) where Leiter Fan argues "Do you remember ANYTHING about what was said when Kazmir signed? Baseball pundits as well as Mets fans were whining that he was too small and wouldn't have enough stamina. Obviously, the Mets now believe this too."
__________________

Fourth and fifth, Greg at Faith and Fear in Flushing recalls the deal a year later. He initially liked it, but, then, several hours after the deal was announced, concluded, "I have to question the scouting that chooses Scott Kazmir out of high school two short years ago as the No. 1 pick only to have the organization decide now he's either too small, too frail or too much of a Shane Spencer to keep around."

While he assumes that Kazmir's size is a possible part of the organization's thinking, he does not attribute that idea to Rick Peterson. He, in the article, goes back and forth on the deals. Great job, Greg.
__________________

Sixth is garbage, Matthew Cerrone's Metsblog where "too small" is referring not to Kazzy's stature, but to Mike Piazza's body of work at first.
__________________

Seventh, we have a thread at FantasyInfoCentral, in which "Ollo" opines

"Apparently the Mets view Kazmir's frame as

too

small, though it is similar to Roy Oswalt, and that their was fear that he would soon blow out his shoulder.

Also, there was apparently a question about his work ethic, which I doubt is true."

This is seemingly in response to an article claiming Goldis was driving Wilpon's thinking.

Earlier in the thread, when news of this deal is just leaking out, Ollo writes

"Mets Pitching Coach Rick Peterson (Creator of Mulder, Zito, Hudson,and Harden), known as God to Mets fans has input in every trade or signing that involves a pitcher. In fact, he must give his approval before any transaction goes down."

Now, the first statement is clearly untrue. So, I think it's safe to say he has no basis for the second.
__________________

Eighth, we have a whole bunch of crap from Ben Maller's archives. It's not relevant to us, as the "too small" is NFL quarterback Kurt Warner referring to his younger self.
__________________

Ninth is the Baseball Fever forum. Somebody said the projected Mets bullpen is "too small." Not relevant to us.
__________________

BTF's Blogpen, our tenth link, is also the wrong tree. What's too small there is the sample size of Mark Bellhorn's experience at second base, if you're looking to draw conclusions.

Go to bed, Edgy.

[Guest Edgy DC]

This morning, we have a new link clocking in at number 10, an article at Batter's Box, which doesn't quote Rick Peterson describing Scott Kazmir as "too small," but rather includes a posting by "Gitz" (Wednesday, December 10 2003 @ 05:37 PM EST [#84146]), pointing out that Tim Hudson overcame "you're too small" issues while pitching under Rick Peterson, without ascribing that quote to anybody in particular.
________________________

Number 11 goes to the same article.
________________________

Hit number 12 is a blogger's opinion at Straight Flushing (Tuesday, March 01, 2005, last entry on the page)

You can say he's too small to pitch starter's innings, or that his mechanics put too much strain on his elbow. Maybe he'll wind up as a relief pitcher, and who would want a Billy Wagner-type around anyway, but at this point he looks like a young lefty with filthy stuff who's poised to have a dominant career as a starter.

Obviously, he's creating an argument in order to shoot it down, and not ascribing the argument to anybody in particular.
________________________

Lucky hit number 13 is an irrelevant post at The Bull Pen, suggesting that Kris Benson's performance for the Mets in 2004 was perhaps "too small" a sample size. Rick Peterson and Scott Kazmir do not appear in the same context.
________________________

Hit number 14 also gives us nothing --- a posting at Flushing Local is again suggesting the Mets bullpen staff might be "too small." Nothing to do with Kazmir.
________________________

Number 15 is the same.
________________________

Number 16 is Bryan Smith at Wait 'Till Next Year. He uses "too small" to get in the point that a top 100 prospects list seems too small as everybody asks about their favorite prospect. He points out then that Matt Peterson wouldn't be in the top 110 either.

He ranks Scott Kazmir tenth, but then confesses that he ranked Kazmir generously high.
________________________

Number 17 is an irrelevant posting at Reds and Blues. It's an old post dating back to the happy times when Kazmir was a Mets property. What's listed as "too small" is Hiram Bithorn Stadium. Not much help to us.
________________________

HIt post number 18 is something useful at The CHUD.COM Message Boards. A post from "MoNkaholic" (08-03-2004, 09:05 AM) takes place shortly after the deal. This was shortly after the deal went down. He implies Peterson bears some responsibility with the statement, "Jim Duquette and Rick Peterson better know what the hell they're doing."

Of course, that may well be referring to (a) Rick Peterson reportedly saying nice things about Victor Zambrano, or ( Rick Peterson's coming responsibility to help redeem Zambrano (and the deal). The poster himself opines, with no reference to Peterson's opinion:

Every prospect they've dealt had holes, Scott Kazmir is too small for a power pitcher, Matt Peterson doesn't project very far and has had to deal with control issues all season, Justin Huber's defense at catcher has been questioned numerous times (a position change from catcher to say first base reduces his value tremendously), and Ty Wigginton is a butcher with the glove with no plate discipline or position on this team.

________________________

Number 19 is that same article by Faith-and-Fear Greg suggesting that smallness may be one trait the Mets didn't particluarly like about Kazmir, again not attributing that opinion to Rick Peterson. Greg does confess a shaky trust in Rick Peterson at one point on his emotional rollercoaster ride. He's hoping, I guess, that if this trade was indeed doomed, Peterson wouldn't have approved it.
________________________

Lastly, for now, is number 20, where Can't Stop the Bleeding in which our three terms appear independently.

Kazmir is being referred to under the headline "Owner Of $200 Million, Last-Place Club Issues Edict" as they return to the old saw that the real culprit in the Kazmir deal wasn't Peterson, wasn't Goldis, but (remember this one?) Leiter.

Not the best of days of days for former Mets product Scott Kazmir, which indicates that Al Leiter is still learning the finer points of voodoo (stabbing the Scott doll in the eyes would be rather blatant, chewing on the elbow, however, might produce the desired results).

Peterson is mentioned not for his alleged cynicism regarding Scott Kazmir (physique-wise or otherwise), but for his more substantiated optimism regarding Victor Zambrano, in the post "Penny Effective In Rehab Start" which muses:

Much as the reputations of Rick Peterson and Jim Duquette took a hit when Victor Zambrano was shut down shortly after his arrival in Flushing, LA�s Paul De Podesta faced a hailstorm of criticism following the trade that brought Brad Penny to the Dodgers.

And the phrase "too small" comes from the posting titled "When Smallball Is Just Too Small" suggesting Willie Randolph found a bunt attempt by Kaz Matsui to be in bad judgment.

[MFS62]

That's what I get trying to explain my original statement. I did not mean for it to be taken literally. I was trying to be sarcastic about my impression that Peterson always seems to have negaitve words about every pitcher, and therefore he would find something negative to say about Wagner. Wagner's height (he's listed at 5'8") was something I used.

And some of the quotes you found support my impression.
Thank you for all that hard work.

Later

[Guest KC]

Calling a poster's comments silly for saying that a coach who has risen
to the the height of his profession vs. that poster's assertion that his Jr.
high gym teacher could do the same is not making anything personal.

It's pointing out some silly comments, and I can even leave out the NO-
THING in caps which make it even sillier (sp?).

[Guest Edgy DC]

]That's what I get trying to explain my original statement.

What you got was an honest response.

]I did not mean for it to be taken literally

OK, you've got no quotes of Peterson sayiing this, so you say that there were no quotes (which I should know) but numerous articles attributing this to him. You don't bother to find one. I do a search and find something, which is a whole bunch of nothing. So you say you didn't mean it at all. Once again, you make an obnoxious statement and act like victim ('That's what I get...") when it's shown to be insupportable.

]I was trying to be sarcastic about my impression that Peterson always seems to have negaitve words about every pitcher, and therefore he would find something negative to say about Wagner.

No, he doesn't always seem "to have negaitve words about every pitcher." Where in the world does that come from? Or is this going to be another statement you didn't really mean?

]Wagner's height (he's listed at 5'8") was something I used.

He's listed at six feet, and the one being negative is you. Which is fine, whatever, but making up facts is nonsense.

]And some of the quotes you found support my impression.

Indeed? Which ones?

]Thank you for all that hard work.

Please support a statement for once, instead of taking empty potshots. You have dirty fun getting cheap licks in, but that nonsense corrupts the record which is against everybody's interest.

[MFS62]

Can't someone just have a good old fashoined opinion?

I'll remind you again that I'm just auditing this course. I'm here for the FUN.
If you want footnotes, start giving out some credits, Professor.


Y'know I made up a word to describe you. Its Parse-imonious.
It means someone who takes relish in disecting the opinions and feelings of others but is miserly in giving out their own opinion, lest it be challenged.

When was the last time you answered one of my questions to you when I asked your opinion about something? Check back and see, if you're into all that research.

In the meantime, chalk me up as another CPF member who won't be around as frequently because of the way you treat people. We're not your employees nor are we your students. We owe you nothing, but we expect some civility when we come here.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Can't someone just have a good old fashoined opinion?

Yes, and in an open forum, they might be confronted. I've said this numerous times. That's what a forum is. That doesn't make you a victim.

]I'll remind you again that I'm just auditing this course. I'm here for the FUN. If you want footnotes, start giving out some credits, Professor.

Well, if you think it's fun to make up a bunch of unsubstantiated nonsense about how other people say bad things about a bunch of other people, I don't really feel so bad about objecting. At all. You take shots, and act hurt when called on it.

]Y'know I made up a word to describe you. Its Parse-imonious. It means someone who takes relish in disecting the opinions and feelings of others but is miserly in giving out their own opinion, lest it be challenged.

I have several thousand posts for you to challenge. Yes, I have my own opinions in them.

]When was the last time you answered one of my questions to you when I asked your opinion about something? Check back and see, if you're into all that research.

What exact questions are you refferring to? Name one, please.

]In the meantime, chalk me up as another CPF member who won't be around as frequently because of the way you treat people. We're not your employees nor are we your students. We owe you nothing, but we expect some civility when we come here.

I wasn't uncivil. Stop licking your imaginary wounds.

[metsmarathon]

Proper Name: William Edward Wagner
Born: July 25, 1971
Tannersville, VA
Height: 5-11
Weight: 201 lbs.
Age: 34

Proper Name: Robert Victor Ryan
Born: December 28, 1975
Bossier City, LA
Height: 6-6
Weight: 249 lbs.
Age: 29


wagner is 4 1/2 years older than ryan. that's a big enough difference for me. if we're not to give the job to heilman, i'd prefer giving it to ryan over the other free agents

[Theoldmole]

Hey, guys, Peterson is a controversial figure in Metland, and of course people are going to see him differently. Come on, guys, it's all fun...we just find our fun in different ways.

I'd hate to be the only Mets Fan since 62 left around here, MF, so hang in there.

And Edgy, I do appreciate all the heavy lifting you do around here.

[Guest KC]

>>>we just find our fun in different ways<<<

word up

[Guest Edgy DC]

KC does the hosting, Yancy the jerry-rigging, and Willets the archiving.

I've been largely made obselete, and need to find new ways to make myself useful.

[smg58]

metsmarathon wrote: wagner is 4 1/2 years older than ryan. that's a big enough difference for me. if we're not to give the job to heilman, i'd prefer giving it to ryan over the other free agents

Wagner's age is a definite concern. It would become a major issue for me if he insisted on four years. The concern with Ryan is how much do you offer somebody based on one big year (see Adrian Beltre). I'd talk to both, but there would be a limit to what I'd offer.

Regarding the Kazmir deal: funny, but I always assumed that Wilpons demanded two major-league starters before the deadline by any means necessary, because it was the only explanation that made sense to me. I can't back that up with any evidence, so I was merely speculating. It seems like everybody else has their own theory on this too. I see no point on getting overly angry with any Met coach/official/player over this, because everything reported on it has been rumor and none of us know what really happened. I see even less value in being angry at each other over this.

[Guest KC]

>>>I've been largely made obselete<<<

If posting and contibution of the most Mets' related stuff on forum is obsolete,
that is. Look everyone - especially 62 - this notion of 'whoa is me I can't post
my opinion' and this place is policed too much to weed out 'posting of ones
opinion' is a bunch of garbage. Posters are encouraged to say what they want
and if someone takes them to task over it - tough fucking tulips. If you don't agree
with the task taker, argue back. There is nothing more irritating than someone on
a baseball forum saying they're leaving or staying or going here or going there over
another poster. Who cares?

[metirish]

I just want to say I thought Peterson did a fine job this year with the pitchers, especially Glavine, Heilman, Bert Hernandez and the young guys out of the pen, oh and Seo, can't forget him.

[Valadius]

What the hell are we arguing about?

[Willets Point]

Beats me!

[Guest sharpie]

Whether the Mets should pursue Wagner or Ryan or someone else or fill the closers position from within.

Whether the Mets should pursue Paul Konerko or play Mike Jacobs or go after someone else.

Whether Edgy is being too mean to MFS62.

There may be more.

[Elster88]

I think the argument was originally about Cowboy Bob Orton's performance on WWF Superstars last Saturday.

[Vic Sage]

if Jacobs can still catch, we platoon him with Castro.
We sign Konerko.
We make due at 2b.
We sign Ryan.
We trade Cameron + Trax for Brian Giles + Linebrink
We're good to go.

Reyes
Beltran
Floyd
Konerko
Wright
Giles
Jacobs
Matsui

VDiaz, Castro, A.Hernandez, Woodward

Pedro
Glavne
Benson
Seo
Zambrano

Ryan
Linebrink
Heilmann

[metirish]

I would stay away from Giles, his numbers have decreased since moving to spacious Petco Park, playing at Shea would hardly help that.

[Guest sharpie]

That .423 obp with 119 walks would look pretty good no matter how spacious the park.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I like it, Vic. Although we won't have to trade for Giles, since he's a free agent, which would mean we could package Trachs & Cam for, say a top prospect or for a decent prospect and a second fourth outfielder (with Floyd & Giles out there, it wouldn't hurt to have some depth at OF).

And while you're right, Irish, and his raw numbers have decreased, his OPS+ has been pretty consistent aside from an off-year in 2004 (126--which is still better than Cliff's in 2005). This year, Giles had a 148 OPS+, which is a little better than his career average (146).

Plus, most of that OPS comes from the fact that he gets on base like nobody's business, which just seals the deal for me. We could really use an on-base machine like him.

[metirish]

Yeah those numbers are nice, hos power numbers are way down though...from 99 through 02 he hit over 35 HR and well over 100 RBI, tis a concern no?

[Guest Rotblatt]

Yeah, that concerns me, Irish, but his SLG has been fairly consistent the last three years (.490, .475 & .483), and if he's up around .480, I'll have no complaints.

What about moving Giles to 1B? He'd be cheaper than Konerko or Delgado and moving him might protect him from getting injured . . . Clearly, Konerko + Giles is better, but if we're not willing to overpay, Giles at first would seem to be a pretty decent option . . .

[Guest sharpie]

He's never played an inning at 1B. Not sure he'd want to.

[metirish]

Not sure he'd even want to come back east, isn't he a "west coast guy"?.Konerko is having a career year,I'd be weary of that again.

[Guest sharpie]

Konerko 04 41-117-.277
Konerko 05 40-100-.283

He's had back-to-back similar seasons and had good seasons prior to those two. Don't think this is a "career year."

[Theoldmole]

I like a lineup with Beltran batting second.

[metirish]

Thanks sharpie, my info was wrong.