Rose / Shoeless Joe Reinstated

[metirish]

I'm sure Trump will take credit and want Rose in sooner rather than later

[Fman99]

I'm happy that [CROSSOUT]John Cusack[/CROSSOUT] Buck Owens will finally get some HoF consideration.

[Frayed Knot]

Buck Owens is already in several, including the Country Music HoF and the Nashville Songwriters HoF

[Fman99]

Frayed Knot wrote: Buck Owens is already in several, including the Country Music HoF and the Nashville Songwriters HoF

Yeah I think I meant Buck Weaver

[Frayed Knot]

I think they should consider Buc-ee Beaver too!





[FIMG=250]https://freepresshouston.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Bucees1.jpg[/FIMG]

[Frayed Knot]

Frayed Knot wrote: Gary mentioned something about how this will not even come up for the next two+ years (Jan '28?). If accurate (and I'm not sure why that will be) it leaves a LOT of time for this problem to be discussed and analyzed. They are no longer the BBWAA's concern, and are being kicked over to the Classic Baseball Era Committee

I guess I just always assumed that if Rose ever became re-eligible he would start out as a first year eligible guy until either he used up his ten year window, or failed to garner the 5% minimum, or got himself and his goofy haircut enshrined. Instead, probably acting on the idea that the majority of today's writers weren't active at the time Pete was, they're treating this as if the BBWAA missed their chance to have a say and so he skips directly to step two.

So they've essentially gone from 'We can't let the writers decide this' to 'We can't let the writers decide this'.

[Gwreck]

Frayed Knot wrote: Instead, probably acting on the idea that the majority of today's writers weren't active at the time Pete was, they're treating this as if the BBWAA missed their chance to have a say and so he skips directly to step two.

There was *already* a rule in place that BBWAA elections can only consider players who played at some point between 5 and 15 years from the date of the vote.

[Edgy MD]

Johnny Bench and Joe Morgan actively tried to negotiate a detente between Pete Rose and MLB, and not only did they fail, but I get the idea that it was deeply frustrating trying to save a guy who didn't want to be saved, as Bench said as recently as a few weeks ago that Rose did not deserve to be in the HoF.



I saw John Dowd speak at a SABR event a number of years ago, and he said that his goal all along was to get Rose's cooperation and help bring him back into baseball's good graces. He would seek out Rose's teammates to act as intermediaries (as Morgan and Bench eventually tried to be), only to find out that — despite him having the greatest set of teammates anyone could ask for as far as being citizens of baseball — that none of them were his friends. All his closest friends were jamokes from Gold's Gym, many of whom were living out of his pocket and had no interest whatsoever in protecting him from his excesses.



I went into that event not being much of a Dowd believer at all, but I was all in on him and all out on Rose by the time it was over.



And then, later, Dowd became one of President Trump's defense lawyers and now I just hate myself.

[Cowtipper]

Hey, Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13-year-old cousin and Ray Lewis killed a guy, and they're in their respective Hall of Fames, but betting on baseball is the line in the sand.

[Centerfield]

Rape. Fucking rape. 14 year old girls. That's the line in the sand.



What the fuck is wrong with everyone.

[Frayed Knot]

1) Ray Lewis didn't kill a guy although was in the vicinity of those who did and hampered the investigation into the crime by hiding and/or withholding evidence.

2) That he is not only in the pro football HoF but was essentially lauded as the face of the league during the post-crime second half of his career should be seen as a stain on the league but isn't and won't be because football isn't held to very high standards by the league itself, by a large portion of its fan-base, or, most sadly, by those who are paid to cover it but instead choose to cheerlead for it. I'd prefer baseball to have some standards.



Rose knew what he was doing, knew that it was against all rules and did it anyway all while lying about it for decades. And now, even in the era where sports gambling is considered legit and the leagues are happily taking advertising money from those legal outlets, if a manager did now what Pete did back then it would STILL be illegal and he'd be thrown out of the game and subject to the same restrictions.



Line in the sand? Fuck Yeah!

[metirish]

Seaver IIRC was strongly against Rose

[MFS62]

Frayed Knot wrote: 1) Ray Lewis didn't kill a guy although was in the vicinity of those who did and hampered the investigation into the crime by hiding and/or withholding evidence. 2) That he is not only in the pro football HoF but was essentially lauded as the face of the league during the post-crime second half of his career should be seen as a stain on the league but isn't and won't be because football isn't held to very high standards by the league itself, by a large portion of its fan-base, or, most sadly, by those who are paid to cover it but instead choose to cheerlead for it.

IIRC the lights went out for a short time during a Super Bowl in which Lewis was playing. Someone wrote, "Lewis didn't kill the lights. He was only in the area."

Later

[Edgy MD]

I think we mostly all then agree that whatever professional standards other professions might have for their respective halls of fame, and whatever missions those halls might have, baseball but should hold to their own standards without regard to those other professions, and as fans are part of baseball, fans very much have a stake in enforcing those standards.



Elihu Root, Cordell Hull, Aristide Briand, and other dubious historical figures have all won Nobel Peace Prizes. That doesn't mean we are all off the hook for holding to our own standard of peaceful co-existence and humanitarianism.* Ray Lewis' enshrinement only means to me that I have even less interest in my local football team, the NFL, and visiting Canton than I already might have had — and less interest in any cause or faith or version of citizenship that Lewis espoused.



Pete Rose's legacy speaks for itself, and to honor it is almost entirely disgraceful, even if he got 10,000 hits.



And just to be clear, the Manfredian notion that the redemption of the status of a dead person cannot fuck over living people is dead wrong, because anybody thinking of cheating or lying or stealing or fucking over their neighbor in the here and now no longer has the thought of "I would be disgraced into perpetuity" to deter them.



A related thing that John Dowd offered is that, at the same time the league was investigating Pete Rose, they were investigating Lenny Dykstra, who was gaining and losing massive amounts of money in illegal card games. There was no evidence in hand that he bet on baseball or deliberately altered the outcome of games, but obviously any player as deep in the hole as Lenny could get himself was in danger of doing just that. Dowd said he explained this to Dykstra, who initially insisted this would never happen, but what ultimately stopped Lenny from gambling during his career was seeing Rose taken down.



As delusional a figure as Dykstra was, he was able to suss out that if a towering figure like Rose was held accountable, he would be, too.



There are a lot of Lenny Dykstras out there, who now no longer have that object lesson to guide them.



One last thought is that, like a president handing out pardons in his last days in office, Manfred only pulled this now that he is on the way out the door with his days numbered.



* Want to know who never won? Mohandes Gandhi!

[batmagadanleadoff]

Rape. Fucking rape. 14 year old girls. That's the line in the sand. What the fuck is wrong with everyone.

If Rose never gambled on baseball, he would've been a first ballot inductee. The "rape" or "pedophilia" would've then occurred while Rose was already in the Hall. Then what?

[Edgy MD]

The specific case on the record occurred in the 1970s. I believe Dowd first uncovered the account during his gambling investigation, so that would have been before Rose's eligibility.



MLB initially sat on that information, I presume as part of an agreement with Rose that he accept the ban in order to keep the evidence gathered against him suppressed. Dowd revealed it later when Rose attempted to sue him.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: The specific case on the record occurred in the 1970s. I believe Dowd first uncovered the account during his gambling investigation, so that would have been before Rose's eligibility. MLB initially sat on that information, I presume as part of an agreement with Rose that he accept the ban in order to keep the evidence gathered against him suppressed. Dowd revealed it later when Rose attempted to sue him.

Yes. But the main point still holds: had Rose never gambled, the statutory rape incident might never have come to light when Rose was first eligible for HOF induction. Rose, presumably, would have then been inducted in his first year of HOF eligibility. If the matter was then discovered, well, there's no process to remove a player from the HOF, once inducted.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Well, such a process could be introduced, if needed.



I don't pay attention to such things, but my assumption is that OJ Simpson is still in the Football Hall of Fame. Was there any consideration of removing him?

[ashie62]

The Phillies announcers seemed pretty jazzed today about Rose being eligible for the hall which is not surprising



As alluded to earlier in this thread there wad a suggestion that the bar has been lowered for the steroid guys



You can put everything about Rose on the plaque, good bad and ugly and maybe that works if elected



Rose potentially getting in bothers me less than the bootlicking of the NHL to Putin fan Alexander Ovechkin and his own hall Prospects there



There will be 2 1/2 years to debate Rose, possibly ad nauseum and I'm sure Donald Trump will potentially do more than just push to get Rose in



Personally, when MLB made deals with the Draftkings of world quite a large amount of integrity went out the window

[TheMythOfCarrot]

=Centerfield post_id=192652 time=1747237655 user_id=65]
Rape. Fucking rape. 14 year old girls. That's the line in the sand.



What the fuck is wrong with everyone.

[MFS62]

Welcome.

Those carrots have allowed to to see the issue clearly.

Later

[Edgy MD]

Correction: In an earlier post, I made reference to a meeting between Rose and then-baseball commissioner Pete Selig brokered by Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench. It was actually Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt behind the overture. I regret the error.

[MFS62]

I bet that I couldn't dislike Mike Schmidt any more than I already did.

I just lost that bet.

Later

[Frayed Knot]

Yeah, I always got the idea that Bench was more anti-Rose than most of Pete's ex-teammates

[Centerfield]

=TheMythOfCarrot post_id=192728 time=1747317657 user_id=217]
=Centerfield post_id=192652 time=1747237655 user_id=65]
Rape. Fucking rape. 14 year old girls. That's the line in the sand.



What the fuck is wrong with everyone.

[Centerfield]

Rape. Fucking rape. 14 year old girls. That's the line in the sand. What the fuck is wrong with everyone. If Rose never gambled on baseball, he would've been a first ballot inductee. The "rape" or "pedophilia" would've then occurred while Rose was already in the Hall. Then what?

Then nothing. The crime was discovered after the induction. It sucks that there's a rapist in the HOF, but you can't really undo something that was already been done. That's a completely different story than honoring a guy after you're aware of the crime.



Kevin Spacey has an Academy Award. You can't take away the award, even though we found out later he's a pedophile. But you don't learn that he preyed on minor boys, then advocate that he should be further honored.



And I don't understand "rape" and "pedophilia" being in quotes. Having sex with 14 year old girls is rape. In fact, statutory rape. And if your only defense is "I thought she was 16", then that's about as clear cut as it gets.

[Edgy MD]

It seems like every living Hall-of-Famer I've read about giving comments on this is giving their mealy-mouthed consent to his enshrinement.



I get it. Their identity revolves around being citizens of baseball, and if the cultural wind is shifting, they find it most advantageous to shift with it.



Still really stinks. Doesn't anybody have any heart in this country? It would sure be nice if Nolan Ryan or somebody came out and said, "No fuckin' way."

[batmagadanleadoff]

Rape. Fucking rape. 14 year old girls. That's the line in the sand. What the fuck is wrong with everyone. If Rose never gambled on baseball, he would've been a first ballot inductee. The "rape" or "pedophilia" would've then occurred while Rose was already in the Hall. Then what? Then nothing. The crime was discovered after the induction. It sucks that there's a rapist in the HOF, but you can't really undo something that was already been done. That's a completely different story than honoring a guy after you're aware of the crime. Kevin Spacey has an Academy Award. You can't take away the award, even though we found out later he's a pedophile. But you don't learn that he preyed on minor boys, then advocate that he should be further honored. And I don't understand "rape" and "pedophilia" being in quotes. Having sex with 14 year old girls is rape. In fact, statutory rape. And if your only defense is "I thought she was 16", then that's about as clear cut as it gets.

Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame.



O.J. Simpson is. So is Ray Lewis.



Personally, I think that the Commissioner's rationale for reinstating Rose is disingenuous bullshit to cover up what I think probably happened -- baseball caved in to the monster in the White House. If the eligibility ban ends upon the player's death, then Shoeless Joe and others would have been reinstated a very long time ago.



And speaking about the monster in the White House, that most voters elected this thoroughly crooked narcissistic megalomaniac psychopath with a bottomless greed to the White House is far more troubling than Rose's reinstatement.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Rape. Fucking rape. 14 year old girls. That's the line in the sand. What the fuck is wrong with everyone. If Rose never gambled on baseball, he would've been a first ballot inductee. The "rape" or "pedophilia" would've then occurred while Rose was already in the Hall. Then what? Then nothing. The crime was discovered after the induction. It sucks that there's a rapist in the HOF, but you can't really undo something that was already been done. That's a completely different story than honoring a guy after you're aware of the crime. Kevin Spacey has an Academy Award. You can't take away the award, even though we found out later he's a pedophile. But you don't learn that he preyed on minor boys, then advocate that he should be further honored. And I don't understand "rape" and "pedophilia" being in quotes. Having sex with 14 year old girls is rape. In fact, statutory rape. And if your only defense is "I thought she was 16", then that's about as clear cut as it gets.

You think Rose will get inducted? The voters have still kept Bonds and Clemens out of the Hall. And, as I see it, both Bonds and Clemens had better careers than Rose. And their "transgressions" were not as serious as Rose's.

[Edgy MD]

Well, serious-ness is a matter of judgment, but Rose will be facing a very different jury — with a different motivation, a different reading of the qualifications, and a different standard of serious-ness than Bonds et al.