Go Get Juan Soto

[Frayed Knot]

I'd certainly question the part about the Mets being "the only serious offer".

There may even be different offers, but I can't even fathom what a 'non serious' offer would be at this stage of the process.



'Hey buddy, that Tesla you bought a year ago ... I'll give you two grand for it, take it or leave it'

[Centerfield]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Do we know who David Pingalore is? Is he reliable? If the Dodgers are really only willing to sign Soto for a one- or two-year contract, then they're not a serious player here. I guess that's the thing, bio seems legit , 29 years covering sports , currently in LA Looks like their version of a Bruce Beck or Len Berman type for you older folks

LA is where Boras lives. Maybe he's a gym buddy or something?

[Centerfield]

Heyman's latest article is about the Red Sox upping their offer.



It does seem more and more like Boras is trying everything he can to get the Yankees to increase their offer.



Not a great sign.

[kcmets]

My dry cleaner's daughter said this morning that Soto will

be a Yankee. I asked her why she thought that and we lost

eye contact she gathered up a pile of clothes and left saying

with her scurrying back to me, "Leave now!"

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: I strongly doubt that in the insular world of MLB, where there are only a few dozen teams to begin with and usually no more than a tiny handful of those teams pursing the same free agent, it happens anywhere remotely like you describe it. I don''t think that there's any bullshitting going on as to what kind of other offers a player is entertaining. It would be a misrepresentation of a material fact ... a misrepresentation of a material element of the contract. And the owners wouldn't allow that to happen to themselves. That's not in their interest. They're not gonna allow themselves to hafta bid against imaginary and fabricated offers. They'll get together on that point and cooperate with each other and compare notes and take away an agent's license, maybe even his law license if they try and pull that crap. Well, the language is legalese, but from what I have read of the Basic Agreement, I understand to forbid clubs from working in concert with each other in such a manner, and a deft agent can play a team into bidding against themselves. And — putting aside the "gajillion" thing — why, as a player or player's agent, would you feel obliged to disclose the details of other offers freely?

In the real world, you wouldn't. That kind of bullshitting that you described happens all the time. But in the closed world of MLB, the owners protect themselves from that by cooperating with each other. That's not collusion because the stated goal is to ensure that the negotiations are honest. And so the agents are on notice and avoid that kind of conduct. The owners insisted on an amateur draft, a soft salary cap with luxury tax penalties and all kinds of hurdles to a player's free agency -- all legally permissible tactics to keep the price of player salaries down. They're not gonna let themselves bid against fabricated offers that are technically ethical and legal violations.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: I strongly doubt that in the insular world of MLB, where there are only a few dozen teams to begin with and usually no more than a tiny handful of those teams pursing the same free agent, it happens anywhere remotely like you describe it. I don''t think that there's any bullshitting going on as to what kind of other offers a player is entertaining. It would be a misrepresentation of a material fact ... a misrepresentation of a material element of the contract. And the owners wouldn't allow that to happen to themselves. That's not in their interest. They're not gonna allow themselves to hafta bid against imaginary and fabricated offers. They'll get together on that point and cooperate with each other and compare notes and take away an agent's license, maybe even his law license if they try and pull that crap. Well, the language is legalese, but from what I have read of the Basic Agreement, I understand to forbid clubs from working in concert with each other in such a manner, and a deft agent can play a team into bidding against themselves. And — putting aside the "gajillion" thing — why, as a player or player's agent, would you feel obliged to disclose the details of other offers freely? In the real world, you wouldn't. That kind of bullshitting that you described happens all the time. But in the closed world of MLB, the owners protect themselves from that by cooperating with each other. That's not collusion because the stated goal is to ensure that the negotiations are honest. And so the agents are on notice and avoid that kind of conduct. The owners insisted on an amateur draft, a soft salary cap with luxury tax penalties and all kinds of hurdles to a player's free agency -- all legally permissible tactics to keep the price of player salaries down. They're not gonna let themselves bid against fabricated offers that are technically ethical and legal violations.

To your other question, an agent isn't obligated to reveal the details of competing offers from other teams. But that would be counterproductive. Don't you think?

[Edgy MD]

Not if you're a good bluffer. Agents don't have to outright lie. They just don't have to share.



As for teams making each other aware, again, unless I'm misreading Article XX of the CBA, that would constitute working in concert, and would be an explicit violation.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Not if you're a good bluffer. Agents don't have to bullshit. They just don't have to share.

Agreed. I noted that.

Edgy MD wrote: As for teams making each other aware, again, unless I'm misreading Article XX of the CBA, that would constitute working in concert, and would be an explicit violation.

Can you post the language you refer to? I just skimmed Article XX and couldn't find language like you refer to. I don't doubt that the language exists, but I'd guess that it's not as broad or as open-ended as your post suggests. Still, sharing offers with other teams doesn't sound improper. This isn't an environment where the bids are improperly disclosed even though they're supposed to be secret, like with government contracts. Also, an owner could share the info with other owners after the deal was made to verify the honesty of the negotiations. It can't be improper to protect against ethical violations. This kind of behavior by owners doesn't restrict the market. They're not colluding to limit the amount of potential offers or to set a specific price.

[TheNextMetsManager]

It's not technically colluding if it's reported by Jon Heyman via an anonymous source. It's not like these guys are tapping front office phones, they're fed information with a purpose. They have all sorts of language and technicalities to play by. This is why sometimes you here "Team A didn't even make an offer". They DID discuss numbers and ranges and such, they just never made it official so that it wouldn't be reported that way. In part because having an official offer invites other teams to top it, and then for you to top that, driving prices up. Usually in these cases, the team has make it pretty clear they're thinking in the say $20-22m range pretty firmly so when team B offers 22 the player/agent knows they've probably reached the cap of what they're going to get, and that it's better to take the offer you've got.

[Edgy MD]

Can you post the language you refer to?

　　Article XX

　　...

　　E. Individual Nature of Rights

　　(1) The utilization or non-utilization of rights under Article XIX(A)(2)*

　　and Article XX** is an individual matter to be determined solely by

　　each Player and each Club for his or its own benefit. Players shall not

　　act in concert with other Players and Clubs shall not act in concert

　　with other Clubs.



　　* Refers to contract assignments.

　　** Refers to the general section heading of The Reserve System, which covers free agency.

I just skimmed Article XX and couldn't find language like you refer to. I don't doubt that the language exists, but I'd guess that it's not as broad or as open-ended as your post suggests.

You may well be right, as I certainly doubt my capacity for understanding legal language, but teams sharing their offers with each other sure sounds like collusion to me.

[MFS62]

And if it is, what is the remedy?

Are the contracts voided?

Are the teams fined or do they lose a draft pick?

To whom do they appeal?



The devil is in the details.

Later

[Edgy MD]

The appeals system and penalties are in the Collective Bargaining Agreement as well.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Can you post the language you refer to? 　　Article XX 　　... 　　E. Individual Nature of Rights 　　(1) The utilization or non-utilization of rights under Article XIX(A)(2)* 　　and Article XX** is an individual matter to be determined solely by 　　each Player and each Club for his or its own benefit. Players shall not 　　act in concert with other Players and Clubs shall not act in concert 　　with other Clubs. 　　* Refers to contract assignments. 　　** Refers to the general section heading of The Reserve System, which covers free agency. I just skimmed Article XX and couldn't find language like you refer to. I don't doubt that the language exists, but I'd guess that it's not as broad or as open-ended as your post suggests. You may well be right, as I certainly doubt my capacity for understanding legal language, but teams sharing their offers with each other sure sounds like collusion to me.

I dunno. In this context, owners (or GM's) wouldn't be sharing info to fix prices or to set the market for a player or players. They're not sharing info to obtain an unfair competitive advantage - emphasis on the word "unfair". Besides, I think that the mere threat, the mere possibility that owners could share this info with each other is enough to keep the agents honest.

[kcmets]

Edgy MD wrote: You may well be right, as I certainly doubt my capacity for understanding legal language...

Yeah, I dunno. I've known you now for what, twenty-five years

and you're a lot sharper than two-thirds of the lawyers I've

known, worked with and have had represent me and mine.



*we now return you to make-soto-a-metto, already in progress*

[smg58]

I can't get worked up at this point. There's nothing substantial left to report until he signs, but people are going to report anyway. Since people like John Olerud are very much the exception and not the rule, I will assume Soto will take the biggest offer until he or his agent publicly says otherwise.



I like being able to assume the Mets are in on players like Soto, though.

[Benjamin Grimm]

It can be frustrating, if you let it. Lately, whenever I search for news about the Mets, I get a flood of stories about trade proposals and predictions from "MLB insiders" who are working with little more than their imaginations.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: It can be frustrating, if you let it. Lately, whenever I search for news about the Mets, I get a flood of stories about trade proposals and predictions from "MLB insiders" who are working with little more than their imaginations.

Yes!! I haven't bothered to even search for Mets articles for almost a month, now. It's all mostly, like you say, BS imaginary trade proposals, probably from teenagers typing from their mother's basements. Newsfeeds are becoming more and more like Amazon or Yelp reviews: you have no idea if the source is credible or a 12-year old.

[Centerfield]

I can't get worked up at this point. There's nothing substantial left to report until he signs, but people are going to report anyway. Since people like John Olerud are very much the exception and not the rule, I will assume Soto will take the biggest offer until he or his agent publicly says otherwise. I like being able to assume the Mets are in on players like Soto, though.

That's the smart approach. Me on the other hand. I can, and absolutely do get worked up.



For instance, in the past 24 hours, I've thought to myself:



"Heyman wrote an article saying the Red Sox are upping their bid. It's so obvious Boras wants the Yankees to increase their bid. Soto wants to be a Yankee."



"Wait a minute. Why would Boras make it so obvious that he's trying to increase the Yankee bid. He's telegraphing that Soto wants to stay a Yankee so the Mets will increase their bid. Soto wants to be a Met."



"Steinbrenner is smart. He never would have traded for Soto if he didn't have the means to retain him. Soto's gonna be a Yankee."



"No way Steve Cohen gets outbid. If Hal steps up, Cohen will counter with a "fuck you" offer. Soto's gonna be a Met."

[MFS62]

CF, "worked up" seems to be an understatement.

As Popeye used to say, "Unlax".

The local papers are suffering from a severe case of premature exultation.

Don't get upset.

We'll know when we know.



But if you have any other theories, pass them on.



Later

[CitiFieldPornRoom]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: It can be frustrating, if you let it. Lately, whenever I search for news about the Mets, I get a flood of stories about trade proposals and predictions from "MLB insiders" who are working with little more than their imaginations. Yes!! I haven't bothered to even search for Mets articles for almost a month, now. It's all mostly, like you say, BS imaginary trade proposals, probably from teenagers typing from their mother's basements. Newsfeeds are becoming more and more like Amazon or Yelp reviews: you have no idea if the source is credible or a 12-year old.

This has always been the case. It's just that 30 years ago without laypeople adding their own takes, people like Olney or Francesa sounded like they knew what they were talking about just due to scarcity.

[Edgy MD]

I disagree that there was ever a time that Mike Francesa sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

[Benjamin Grimm]

There have been rumors that the Red Sox are about to close the deal.



I guess we'll see.

[Edgy MD]

How do we have two Porn Rooms?

[metirish]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: There have been rumors that the Red Sox are about to close the deal. I guess we'll see.

There is certainly a bunch of people on Twitter claiming inside knowledge that he is going to Boston , but it looks like a whole lot of bait



One person claims that a friend in real estate says she has been showing Soto's older sister houses ,that's the kind of stuff that's going on

[Benjamin Grimm]

If the Mets get Soto, the Red Sox can have his older sister.

[stevejrogers]

=metirish post_id=179943 time=1732991000 user_id=72]One person claims that a friend in real estate says she has been showing Soto's older sister houses ,that's the kind of stuff that's going on

[Frayed Knot]

Just scanning the MLB.com page:



Nov 16: Blue Jays, Red Sox, Mets have met with Soto



Nov 18: Yanx meet with Soto (report)



Nov 18: Dodgers expected to meet with Soto this week



Nov 18: Cohen to best any Soto offer by $50 million (report)



Nov 19: Phillies plan to meet with Soto (report)



Nov 20: Soto has "good meeting" with Yanx



Nov 26: Five teams submit offer to Soto (source)



Nov 26: Red So 'stepping up efforts' to sign Soto (report)



Nov 26: Soto's decision coming before the winter meetings?



Nov 27: Yanx increase offer to Soto



Nov 30: Mets and Red Sox appear to be most likely landing spots for Soto (report)



Dec 2: Will Blue Jays be the top bidder on Soto?





Have fun with all of that.

[MFS62]

From Metsmerized online:

Soto's agent Scott Boras clarified that Soto has “begun the process of eliminating teams,” and his signing isn't imminent. Additionally, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic learned that bidding for the star slugger has reached $600 million.

Later

[Benjamin Grimm]

Ken Rosenthal reporting that Soto has offers from five teams, each one surpassing the $600 million mark. (Mets, Yankees, Blue Jays, Red Sox, and Dodgers)

[metirish]

Looks like he's the man right now