Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

[seawolf17]

Frayed Knot wrote: btw, what team was it that Beltran came from when he arrived in Houston only to immediately inform his new team that their sign-stealing system was "behind the times"? Hard to remember at this point but it may have been one of those complaining the loudest recently.

This, I thought, was far and away the most interesting piece of that article.

[Ceetar]

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Not speaking for Ceets but my guess is he sees a conspiracy whereby Beltran is being set-up as a fall guy. That he was caught in a lie about his culpability--and the report and now these comments support that he was lying--doesn't matter in that case.

A little yes, but he IS being set up as a fall guy. I'm not saying he wasn't involved (I personally don't care though), but to paint him as some godfather evil overlord lambasting the little Astros (fucking Brian McCann. Consider the source here. Fucking Brian McCann. Who was with Beltran the year before happily cheating, who btw was with the Astros in 2018 as well. Technically they didn't 'bang' in 2018, does that mean they didn't relay signals? The MLB report says they were still relying signs. ) And please, the media runs you down NOW to talk about the 2017 Astros and you're not going to plead "oh, it was the other guys really!"? Of course you're going to deny it.





Beltran again, is the only player being punished.

A. MLB knew. Everyone knew. There are a zillion simple and easy things both opposing teams and MLB could've done to prevent this. They didn't. And then when it all hits the fan it's a player, employed elsewhere, that is damaged?

B. 'I'm not aware of the camera' is clearly nonsense, but also not really the point. He wasn't being forthright, but why would he incriminate himself either? Also the WSJ report says it was front office guys that had decoded the signs using the game feed (this is legal, you're just now allowed to do it during the game) and support personal that was in the replay room. So Beltran wasn't really looking at the cameras anyway.

C. MLB approved the Astros moving the monitor closer to the dugout, despite knowing they were stealing signs.

D. There have been dozens of reports of other teams doing this, of lots of teams doing this, etc etc. MLB doesn't seem particularly interesting in chasing them down. It seems like it wants to pretend this is resolved, so Beltran gets lumped in with Hinch and Cora as the guys punished, and everyone else is just "whoops, okay, cover our tracks better" It's like the early 2000s where everyone's like "Oh, maybe I shouldn't send the steroids directly to the clubhouse with my name on it"

E. It barely did anything. A lot of the research is suggesting that maybe there was an edge, but it was negated by NOT knowing other times. i.e. if the system fails the drawbacks are a lot worse than the gains you got for knowing. So we're talking about something that happened 3 years ago that maybe didn't even help that much, but Beltran is some evil overlord for it?

F. to tie back to B. The media has been very clear that they were annoyed Beltran didn't dish the dirt in his press conference accepting the job, and this Post article is just another example of referencing that. A few reporters even said "oh, if he'd been as candid in his resignation PC as he was in his acceptance PC, he probably could've stayed." Literally said that. And this post article hits all the talking points without really understanding them.







while fact checking some dates I saw this SI article from Verducci, who I generally find highly questionable at least as advanced understanding of the game goes, but this one seems at least well reasoned and thought out. (https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/13/houston-astros-cheating-punishmenthttps://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/13/houston-astros-cheating-punishment)



He mentions an interesting catch-22 type thing. What if you go to the clubhouse to review game footage of your most recent PA, as many batters do, and you catch the catcher's signs while you do it? Then later on, you're on second base, pick up what the sign is? That's against the rules because you used the camera DURING the game. Are you just supposed to sit on that? sure.

[Edgy MD]

I banged in 2018.



I banged a lot.

[LWFS]

HEEEEEEY now

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: I banged in 2018. I banged a lot.

Between Edgy and Ben Grimm, this place is turning into a locker room.

[kcmets]

Lol, sez the guy who banged Latvia. (or was it Croatia?)

[Edgy MD]

Same difference. The dude terrorized the whole Baltic.



Even Danish kids are starting to look suspiciously Korean.

[Frayed Knot]

And we have our JD Davis apology:



“Looking back as a young guy, being exposed to that in 2017 and looking back and getting a full season now, of course it's regrettable and you feel ashamed to be a part of it.”

[at the time] I didn't really think much of the [sign-stealing], going up there fresh and being part of a major league clubhouse and a major league guy, ... Maybe what they did

was the norm. I had no idea. I had never been in another big-league clubhouse to compare the two. Looking back on the details of it, it's terrible. It's terrible for the game of

baseball. Anybody who gets crowned the World Series champion, it's not only a big deal, but it's a big deal for the baseball world and how they have earned it and they have

gone through the 162 games and through the playoffs. To have the incident is very unfortunate.”



https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/j-d-davis-now-ashamed-of-role-in-astros-cheating-scandal/https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/j-d-davis-now-ashamed-of-role-in-astros-cheating-scandal/

[Guest 41Forever]

Frayed Knot wrote: And we have our JD Davis apology: “Looking back as a young guy, being exposed to that in 2017 and looking back and getting a full season now, of course it's regrettable and you feel ashamed to be a part of it.” [at the time] I didn't really think much of the [sign-stealing], going up there fresh and being part of a major league clubhouse and a major league guy, ... Maybe what they did was the norm. I had no idea. I had never been in another big-league clubhouse to compare the two. Looking back on the details of it, it's terrible. It's terrible for the game of baseball. Anybody who gets crowned the World Series champion, it's not only a big deal, but it's a big deal for the baseball world and how they have earned it and they have gone through the 162 games and through the playoffs. To have the incident is very unfortunate.” https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/j-d-davis-now-ashamed-of-role-in-astros-cheating-scandal/https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/j-d-davis-now-ashamed-of-role-in-astros-cheating-scandal/

He did a better job than the Astros' owner did.

[Frayed Knot]

Flexing naked in front of the reporters while shouting; 'Fuck sign stealing, here's how I got all my hits: Check out the Gun Show', would have been a better job than what Jim Crane did.

[Edgy MD]

God damn, that would be great.



Especially if it was Lucas Duda doing it.

[Ceetar]

I kinda want someone to be all "I don't know why they didn't just change their signs." shrug and walk away.

[kcmets]

Signage probably deserves it's own thread. I didn't play HS ball but I did pitch

into the summer between 10-11th grade in an organized rec league. 1 was fastball,

2 was curve and 3 was off-speed or change-up.



What changed inning to inning or several times a game was the 'indicator'. The in-

dicator directly preceded the pitch to be thrown. For example, if the indicator was

the catcher closing his mitt and threw down 1-2-1-closed mitt-2-1-3 he was calling

for the curve. It wasn't rocket science.



Same thing for the third base coach. If the steal sign was touching his shoulder and

the indicator was fixing his cap and he grabbed his crotch fixed his cap touched his

shoulder and the pulled his shorts out of his crack the steal was on.

[Frayed Knot]

The other team could change their signs all they wanted but the thing about real-time video is that you can then pick up the new ones in no time flat.

Stealing signs isn't the crime here, if you can naked eye your way into their code then matzoh tov. The illegal part is the installation of an electronic

spy system which gives the home team a Yuge advantage over the road dudes in deciphering what the other side is planning.

[kcmets]

Frayed Knot wrote: Stealing signs isn't the crime here, if you can naked eye your way into their code then matzoh tov. The illegal part is the installation of an electronic spy system which gives the home team a Yuge advantage over the road dudes in deciphering what the other side is planning.

Of course, I was just saying, and I doubt the underlying stuff hasn't changed

much. I would think the signage should be able to overcome the cheating. Hell,

how hard would it be to change the indicator every pitch?

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: The other team could change their signs all they wanted but the thing about real-time video is that you can then pick up the new ones in no time flat. Stealing signs isn't the crime here, if you can naked eye your way into their code then matzoh tov. The illegal part is the installation of an electronic spy system which gives the home team a Yuge advantage over the road dudes in deciphering what the other side is planning.

nobody installed an electric spy system. They stole signs on the road too, it just wasn't always as easy to communicate it because they couldn't control where the replay room was. And if you can pick up the new ones in no time flat they weren't particularly encoded were they?

[Frayed Knot]

nobody installed an electric spy system.

Cameras trained on the catcher's signals which are then relayed to a monitor next to the dugout which are then relayed to the batter via various means (maybe even electronically) all in real time

is SPECIFICALLY an electronic spy system!

They stole signs on the road too,

Not via cameras that the home team didn't have access to they didn't.

And if you can pick up the new ones in no time flat they weren't particularly encoded were they?

There's only so much one can "encode" with a flash of fingers and when you have a camera trained on those fingers for every pitch not only of that game but for all the previous games vs that

team then, yes, it's not too hard to figure out what pitch corresponds to each new pitch.

[Ceetar]

Where does it say anywhere that there were cameras no one else had access to?



There are a zillion ways to encode a sign, even under the circumstances. So many in fact, that the reports say the Astros stopped because other teams had caught on and were doing just that!

[Frayed Knot]

Where does it say anywhere that there were cameras no one else had access to?

So how would that work I wonder? ... Maybe the GM contacts his counterpart in advance of their visit with an offer to share:

Hey pal, looking forward to your three game series at our place this weekend. Maybe we can grab a beer after one of the games.

Anyway, just dropping this email to let you know that we'll be having a camera aimed at your catcher's crotch all series long. And not the regular local network cam but the zoom lens one for picking up

details ... y'know, like the ones Manfred said we are strictly forbidden from using. But in the interest of fair play we'd like to extend access of it to your team as well. You'll have to route some lines to

your own dugout since at the moment it's just routed to ours so you'd have to get here early enough on Friday to start with that. I won't be in until game time (daughter's soccer practice) but just ask

for Sal in maintenance and he'll let you in. Oh, and don't let on to Verlander that we'll allowing you in on this, he gets a little prickly at times and we'd like to resign him soon.

All the best.

[ashie62]

I'm ok with a runner on second looking in and picking signs off. The gentlemans way, if you wiil.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: Where does it say anywhere that there were cameras no one else had access to? So how would that work I wonder? ... Maybe the GM contacts his counterpart in advance of their visit with an offer to share: Hey pal, looking forward to your three game series at our place this weekend. Maybe we can grab a beer after one of the games. Anyway, just dropping this email to let you know that we'll be having a camera aimed at your catcher's crotch all series long. And not the regular local network cam but the zoom lens one for picking up details ... y'know, like the ones Manfred said we are strictly forbidden from using. But in the interest of fair play we'd like to extend access of it to your team as well. You'll have to route some lines to your own dugout since at the moment it's just routed to ours so you'd have to get here early enough on Friday to start with that. I won't be in until game time (daughter's soccer practice) but just ask for Sal in maintenance and he'll let you in. Oh, and don't let on to Verlander that we'll allowing you in on this, he gets a little prickly at times and we'd like to resign him soon. All the best.

How long is this ridiculous absurd disagreement gonna go on for? The guy doesn't get that it's wrong for the home team to install cameras to steal signs which should be obvious to anyone after zero posts, let alone that it even has to be explained. After about 100 exchanges on this point, you might as well bang your head against the wall for all the convincing you think you're gonna do. He probably thinks it's OK for the visiting team to have to bat with baseballs made of iron, too.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Guest

[Ceetar]

It's shocking to me that anyone could still think they installed special cameras after all this. I know most of this is filtered through absolutely pathetic 'reporting' by supposed 'journalists' but it's just not true.

[batmagadanleadoff]

OK. Then so maybe they didn't install special cameras. So then the cameras were already there. BFD! That's hardly the fucking point.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Guest

[Ceetar]

The point is that something that's 100% preventable by the 'victim' makes it real hard for me to feel like they got the short straw or something. Especially given how facilitated it was by MLB. It'd be like if they put the steroids in the clubhouse unmonitored with a big sign that says don't take these if you don't have an exemption for them.

[batmagadanleadoff]

So if it's so fucking easy to steal signs because it's the "victims" fault, then why the fuckety fuck fuck fuck would the Astros need cameras and telescopes and satellites from Mars to steal signs? I suppose you think you have the right to rob my house, too If I forgot to lock my door.



Great. Now I'm debating this with you, against all instincts. I deserve it.

[Frayed Knot]

So aside from Alex Cora being, in effect, pre-fired for his role in the Red Sox version of the sign stealing scandal, MLB's investigation raps the Sox with only a suspension to the Video Replay System

Operator [entire 2020 season plus post if any] and a loss of a 2nd round draft pick.

[nymr83]

Cora was, however, suspended for 2020 due to his role in the Astros scandal.



MLB's findings were that a single video room operator who was helping baserunners steal signs with video (which is legal if you are looking at old video just not video from the current live game?) updated his findings with live game footage. some players knew about this but not all and nobody but him took any actual actions to further the plot. the front office and managers didnt know.

[Edgy MD]

More could https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2896010-mlb-letter-to-yankees-about-alleged-sign-stealing-in-2017-ordered-to-be-unsealed?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorialpossibly by dropping ... possibly on the Yankees (though I'm counting no chickens).

Tim Daniels wrote: U.S. District Court judge Jed Rakoff ruled Friday the New York Yankees must unseal a letter they received from MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred in 2017 about findings in a sign-stealing investigation that led to an undisclosed fine. ... The plaintiffs in the case argued Manfred's letter to the Yanks will reveal a "more serious sign-stealing scheme" than what was represented in the 2017 announcement of a fine, per Drellich. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2896010-mlb-letter-to-yankees-about-alleged-sign-stealing-in-2017-ordered-to-be-unsealed?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorialhttps://bleacherreport.com/articles/2896010-mlb-letter-to-yankees-about-alleged-sign-stealing-in-2017-ordered-to-be-unsealed?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

[MFS62]

Y'mean steroid central of past years might have actually been (gasp) cheating in the way they stole signs?

Be still my heart.



Later