HOF Nonsense 2020

[G-Fafif]

Modern Era ballot does not include Keith Hernandez.



It does have Dwight Evans, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Marvin Miller, Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons and Lou Whitaker.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

I like that the "Today's Game" ballot includes Marvin Miller, who is 102 years old and dead.

[HahnSolo]

I'd be happy to see Evans and Whitaker get in. Miller too, but he's been on the Today's Game ballot before and overlooked for some reason.

[G-Fafif]

Mistyped. It's Modern Era. But Miller's impact is timeless.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: I like that the "Today's Game" ballot includes Marvin Miller, who is 102 years old and dead.

I call bullshit. He's either 102 years old, or dead. Can't be both sir.

[Guest 41Forever]

I think that's a pretty strong ballot, despite the glaring omission of Keith.

[LWFS]

Any ballot including Garvey over Keith is a spray-tanned joke.

[Edgy MD]

The weird part is that Keith himself tends to consider Garvey to be the better candidate.



This is, of course, nuts.

[MFS62]

=LWFS post_id=25997 time=1572936417 user_id=84]
Any ballot including Garvey over Keith is a spray-tanned joke.

[seawolf17]

Miller, Murphy, Parker, Whitaker. I could be convinced on Simmons and Evans. The rest, no.

[batmagadanleadoff]

=LWFS post_id=25997 time=1572936417 user_id=84]
Any ballot including Garvey over Keith is a spray-tanned joke.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: The weird part is that Keith himself tends to consider Garvey to be the better candidate. This is, of course, nuts.

I love Keith but I've always questioned his analytic skills.

[Edgy MD]

He's the Joe Morgan of firstbasemen. So committed to the old school values that he doesn't even realize how much smarter and better he played than the old school values would have appreciated.



So dumb, he doesn't know how smart he is.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Keith's problem - HOF-wise, is that he was way way way ahead of his time. Watching Keith play first base must've been like catching a Jimi Hendrix show in mod London, '66, before Jimi put out any recordings. It was the future, dropped onto your lap. Except Keith was even more ahead of his time than Jimi. If Keith had never existed and then came on the scene today as a young first baseman, he'd still be ahead of his time. Keith was so ahead of his time that the best stats probably don't even come close to measuring what Keith did defensively and even when they're invented, they won't be able to be applied retroactively because so many defensive stats can't simply be counted the way you can add up a player's home runs. They have to be observed.

[Edgy MD]

I'm thinking that one day, technology will advance so that the equivalent of StatCast data can be extracted from digitized game films and videotapes.



Maybe not in my lifetime, but I'm sure somebody somewhere is working on it today.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm thinking that one day, technology will advance so that the equivalent of StatCast data can be extracted from digitized game films and videotapes. Maybe not in my lifetime, but I'm sure somebody somewhere is working on it today.

The way that'll happen is that one day an advanced race of extraterrestrials will reveal themselves and it'll turn out that all along, they've had the whole planet Earth monitored with their advanced film and recording equipment. They've been recording all of humanity for the last coupl'a hundred thousand years. We'll be able to see live footage of actual dinosaurs in the wild and Nicole Simpson getting killed. And we'll get to see who put the big black dildo in Kevin Plawecki's locker.

[86dreamer]

Evans, Munson, Simmons and Keith would get my vote. Miller as well.

[MFS62]

Simmons, Keith and Miller.

I do not believe Munson was a Hall of Famer. There was a journeyman infielder who played around the same time named Bruce Bochte. The had approximately the same plate appearances and identical OBPs. (.756) If you're asking "Who is Bruce Bochte?" That's my point. If Bruce Bochte isn't a Hall of Famer, neither (IMO) is Munson.

Later

[bmfc1]

I refuse to recognize the greatness of Mattingly unless and until the greatness of Keith is recognized. Until then, he's merely the manager of the Marlins who whines and bitches about every call and makes unnecessary challenges.

[Frayed Knot]

Simmons, Keith and Miller. I do not believe Munson was a Hall of Famer. There was a journeyman infielder who played around the same time named Bruce Bochte. The had approximately the same plate appearances and identical OBPs. (.756) If you're asking "Who is Bruce Bochte?" That's my point. If Bruce Bochte isn't a Hall of Famer, neither (IMO) is Munson.

I don't believe Munson is a HoF'er either, but there certainly CAN be a big difference even between players with identical OPS's when one is a catcher and the other a LF/1B (Bochte) so you don't want

to hang your entire argument on that.



And now that Mattingly's been brought up, I've used similar reasoning with those Yanqui fans who argue for his inclusion as they often cite the similarity of career stats between Donny & Kirby Puckett,

right up to the injuries which shortened both their careers.

BUT, I point out:

- Kirby was a CF (most of his career anyway) which trumps even a good fielding 1B like DM when offensive stats are more or less equal

- Puckett had a lot of good years vs D. Baseball whose prime was more like six excellent seasons followed by six mediocre. Not sure how much that should matter but it seems to in the minds of voters.

- KP's post-season record; it's not necessarily Donny's fault that he didn't have a post-season resume to speak of, but he didn't and Kirby did and Kirby's was a pretty darn good one with over 100 ABs

plus two championships.

- I wouldn't have put Puckett in were it up to me* and I don't believe in the 'If A then B' line of thinking anyway, so B doesn't get in just because A did and especially not when A was an iffy choice to

start with.



So, you want a reason as to why Puckett and not Mattingly? There's four, pick one or more that you like.











* I always thought Kirby got in at least partially for the ball to his face that effectively ended his career, and also for the outgoing and fun nature he projected. Now had some of the darker aspects of his personal life been made public

prior to his eligibility I don't think he passes muster. When his candidacy is partly for on field stuff, partly for sympathy, partly for likability, and then the likability end falls apart, those who voted might start to have second thoughts.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Guest

[ashie62]

I would take Darrell Evans over Dwight Evans

[Frayed Knot]

=ashie62 post_id=26274 time=1573330592 user_id=90]
I would take Darrell Evans over Dwight Evans

[Edgy MD]

I'm pretty sure there's not a cap on Evanses in the Hall of Fame.



I always thought Evans had a pretty similar profile to Dave Winfield. Winfield was inducted in his first year of eligibility while Evans got 5.9% of the vote his first year, 10.4% his second, and 3.9% and out in his third.

[Vic Sage]

OFers: i'd rank them Murphy / Evans / Parker, with none of them clear HOFers, but Murphy had the highest peak and played CF, so if i were to pick one, i'd go Murphy.



Catchers: Simmons / Munson, neither are clear HOFers, but maybe Simmons. People think Munson had a higher peak, cut short by tragedy. But his peak wasn't higher (simmons had 5 seasons of 140+ OPS+, Munson had 1), and the career cut short by tragedy ignores the fact that he was already declining. We'd had his best, and it wasn't good enough.



1b: Hernandez / Mattingly / Garvey, with none of them clear HOFers, but maybe Keith. Mattingly clearly had the highest peak, but it was basically 4 seasons, while Keith had a more sustained period of excellence. Garvey doesn't even belong in the conversation.



IFer: Whitaker? no. just no. not high enough peak, not enough sustained excellence. Really good, but not a HOFer. His partner squeaked in due to higher peak.



Pitchers: John? Only for the iconic surgery.



my ballot: Murphy /Simmons / Miller, with a write-in for Keith

[Edgy MD]

You had me up until you locked out Whitaker.

[LWFS]

2-time MVP Murphy had a higher peak, and "2-time-MVP" sounds great in a credential-philippic, but-- blame physical decline, blame Chick-Fil-A-- Dewey Evans was a better player for longer. Also, history likes his defensive gifts a LOT more in retrospect (and people liked them plenty at the time), and he was starter-on-a-good-team good right up until age 37 or 38.



Gimme Evans/Keith/Whitaker, with Simmons JUST missing.

[Edgy MD]

Vic Sage wrote: IFer: Whitaker? no. just no. not high enough peak, not enough sustained excellence. Really good, but not a HOFer. His partner squeaked in due to higher peak.

I didn't know Mrs. Whitaker had been inducted.



Here are the leading fWAR gobblers among second-basemen:




[TABLE][TR][/TR][/TABLE]

[TD]1) Rogers Hornsby: 130.3 2) Eddie Collins: 120.5 3) Nap Lajoie: 102.2 4) Joe Morgan: 98.8 5) Charlie Gehringer: 78.6 6) Frankie Frisch: 74.8 7) Rod Carew: 72.3 * 8) Bobby Grich: 69.2 9) Lou Whitaker: 68.1 10) Craig Biggio: 65.8 ** 11) Roberto Alomar: 63.6 12) =#FF8000]Chase Utley: 62.9 13) Bid McPhee: 62.7 14) Willie Randolph: 62.0 15) Ryne Sandberg: 60.9 16) Joe Gordon: 60.6 17) =#FF8000]Robinson Cano: 57.3 18) Jackie Robinson: 57.2 *** 19) =#FF8000]Jeff Kent: 56.0 20) Billy Herman: 55.0[/TD]

[TD]21) Bobby Doerr: 53.3 22) Tony Lazzeri: 50.1 23) Larry Doyle: 49.6 24) Johnny Evers: 49.0 25) =#FF8000]Ian Kinsler: 47.7 26) =#FF8000]Dustin Pedroia: 46.6 27) Tony Phillips: 46.6 28) Cupid Childs: 45.6 29) Nellie Fox: 45.2 30) Ben Zobrist: 44.5 31) Buddy Myer: 43.9 32) Hardy Richardson: 43.6 33) Julio Franco: 42.0 34) Davey Lopes: 41.8 35) Del Pratt: 40.9 36) John Montgomery Ward: 39.8 **** 37) Chuck Knoblauch: 39.8 t-38) Lonny Frey: 39.7 t-38) Gil McDougald: 39.7 40) Fred Dunlap: 39.5[/TD]

[TD]41) Miller Huggins: 39.0 ***** 42) =#FF8000]Alfonso Soriano: 38.9 43) Plácido Polanco: 38.4 44) Eddie Stanky: 37.7 45) Max Bishop: 37.5 46) Red Schoendienst: 37.4 ****** 47) Dick McAuliffe: 35.3 48) =#FF8000]Jose Altuve: 35.0 49) George Grantham: 34.9 50) Danny Murphy: 34.5 51) Don Buford: 33.7 52) Claude Ritchey: 33.2 53) Jimmie Dykes: 32.9 54) Jim Gilliam: 32.7 55) Tony Cuccinello: 32.2 56) =#FF8000]Brandon Phillips: 31.4 57) =#FF8000]Howie Kendrick: 31.3 58) Jimmy Williams: 31.2 59) Frank White: 31.1 60) Bill Mazeroski: 30.9[/TD]

Players in blue are in the Hall of Fame.

Players in =#FF8000]orange are still eligible to gain entry to the Hall of Fame through the BBWAA.

* Rod Carew finished his career at first base.

** Craig Biggio started his career at catcher and finished in center field.

*** Jackie Robinson started his career at first base and finished it at third base and the outfield.

**** Monte Ward really shouldn't be listed among secondbaseman, as he played all over the diamond, including pitcher, and appeared at shortstop more frequently than anywhere else. His Hall-of-Fame status is also largely due to his legacy as a pioneer of the game.

***** Miller Huggins was a good player, but he owed almost all of his membership in The Hall of Fame to his managerial career.

****** Red Schoendienst, it can be fairly surmised, earned a big chunk of his Hall-of-Fame legacy as a manager as wwell.

One Hall-of-Famer not shown is Frank Grant, whose entire legacy was earned outside of the major leagues due to segregation.



I've long considered Lou Whitaker to be one of the best Hall of Fame candidates on the outside looking in. I also consider him probably the best candidate who was given the one-and-done treatment by the BBWAA voters.

[Guest 41Forever]

I think Whitaker is going in. I'm also surprised to see how high Willie Randolph is on that list.

[Edgy MD]

Willie was rarely great, but he stayed mostly healthy, stole a lot of bases efficiently, remained a defensive asset through most of his career, could turn the double-play better than any contemporary not named "Flynn," worked an assload of walks, and lived in the shadow of some larger-than life characters. A better second act to his managerial career could turn him into a serious candidate. I wouldn't bet on it, though, as he was never a serious MVP candidate or had a career-defining season.



I also think some of the current guys (Pedroia? Altuve?) have a good chance to push him backwards in the pack.

[Edgy MD]

Jay Jaffe sez "https://blogs.fangraphs.com/lou-whitaker-belongs-in-cooperstown/Lou Whitaker Belongs in the Hall of Fame."