Mets Retire Another Number!

[Vic Sage]

I've always been somewhat elitist about the numbers on the wall. It also gives us a favorable point of comparison with the yankees, IMO, who would retire a ball boy's number and call it yankee tradition.



But Kooz?



The first Mets game i attended was a game that Kooz pitched (and won). As a fellow lefty, i felt immediate kinship. As i grew older, I knew Seaver was the superior pitcher, but it was Kooz who dominated in the 69 series, not Tom (in 73, too). And it was Kooz, as Tom's wingman, who i always preferred, with his modest, self-effacing manor and impish good humor standing in stark contrast to the brash, arrogant, jock-fratboy persona of Tom terrific. I was more upset when they traded Jerry away than the Seaver trade, though i understood the relative difference in the impact on the team's fortunes. But i was happy for Jerry when he won 20 for the Twins that first season after the trade. And i was happy to see him go out strong, giving the Phillies a solid season when he was in his 40s.



So hell, yes, put that 36 on the freakin' wall. He was more of a Met than a roided up merc like Piazza, or a 2-season wonder like Carter.



Welcome home, Jerry. It' been a long time. Put your feet up. stay awhile.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

=stevejrogers post_id=22853 time=1569422568 user_id=57]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22846 time=1569421067 user_id=68]
Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

[Vic Sage]

Other names?



Wright and Beltran, definitely. They are the best players at their respective positions that the organization has ever had. But, as much as i liked Keith, he was a Cardinal more than he was a Met. Carter, even more so (as an Expo).



Straw and Doc? They both embarrassed themselves and the organization. They didn't honor their numbers, so neither should the team.



Nobody else yet. Maybe DeGrom one day, if he keeps pitching like this for the rest of his current contract.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Vic Sage wrote: I've always been somewhat elitist about the numbers on the wall. It also gives us a favorable point of comparison with the yankees, IMO, who would retire a ball boy's number and call it yankee tradition. But Kooz? The first Mets game i attended was a game that Kooz pitched (and won). As a fellow lefty, i felt immediate kinship. As i grew older, I knew Seaver was the superior pitcher, but it was Kooz who dominated in the 69 series, not Tom (in 73, too). And it was Kooz, as Tom's wingman, who i always preferred, with his modest, self-effacing manor and impish good humor standing in stark contrast to the brash, arrogant, jock-fratboy persona of Tom terrific. I was more upset when they traded Jerry away than the Seaver trade, though i understood the relative difference in the impact on the team's fortunes. But i was happy for Jerry when he won 20 for the Twins that first season after the trade. And i was happy to see him go out strong, giving the Phillies a solid season when he was in his 40s. So hell, yes, put that 36 on the freakin' wall. He was more of a Met than a merc like Piazza, or a 2-season wonder like Carter. Welcome home, Jerry. It' been a long time. Put your feet up. stay awhile.

Yeah. I pretty much agree here. I'm fine with the Mets mailntaing extremely high, or as you say, elitist standards for retiring numbers. If the Mets wanted to limit retired numbers for guys like Seaver and Piazza, I had no problem. But if they're gonna now relax those standards, Koosman jumps to the top or close to the top of that new list. Carter, still, doesn't make my list unless I hafta submit a very long list.

[batmagadanleadoff]

=stevejrogers post_id=22854 time=1569422760 user_id=57]
I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter.



Did he stiff you?



Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

Vic Sage wrote: Nobody else yet. Maybe DeGrom one day, if he keeps pitching like this for the rest of his current contract.

deGrom could pitch like Mike Pelfrey the rest of his contract. He'd still be a Mets legend by the end of it.

[Vic Sage]

Edgy MD wrote: Vic Sage wrote: Nobody else yet. Maybe DeGrom one day, if he keeps pitching like this for the rest of his current contract. deGrom could pitch like Mike Pelfrey the rest of his contract. He'd still be a Mets legend by the end of it.

fair enough.



As regards the "slippery slope" argument, i don't buy it. A cursory look at the numbers show obvious groupings and tiers, considering Metly attributes (production, longevity, character)

*The top position player is Wright, and then a drop down to Straw and Beltran, who are still above the line.

* Then you get a group of Piazza, Fonzie, Reyes and Keith, who i would say are below the line, except Piazza is a HOFer with enough Metly attributes to consider above the line.

* with regard to pitching, there is Seaver and everybody else. But the next tier is Gooden and Kooz, with deGrom closing fast.



If you are adding to Seaver and Piazza, and excluding the delinquents (which i would), its Kooz, Beltran, Wright and (soon) deGrom. So i don't see the slope as particularly slippery., even including Kooz.

[batmagadanleadoff]

You can't know if it's a slippery slope just yet. You'll only know years from now, based on what other numbers are eventually retired and what the rationale would be for those other numbers.

[Vic Sage]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22865 time=1569425935 user_id=68]
You can't know if it's a slippery slope just yet. You'll only know years from now, based on what other numbers are eventually retired and what the rationale would be for those other numbers.

[Edgy MD]

Somebody get duan on the horn. He always brings a useful perspective to these matters.



(And where has marathon been?)

[stevejrogers]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22860 time=1569424118 user_id=68]
=stevejrogers post_id=22854 time=1569422760 user_id=57]
I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter.



Did he stiff you?



Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?

[kcmets]

We've been through #8 aka Camera Carter and later aka Pop-up Carter for like

20 years now and the answer is still clearly a no-way for number retirement.

[kcmets]

Remember that face Pop-up Carter made when he popped up?



'Almost got it, I'll get one next time. Or tomorrow, or next week ...'

[Edgy MD]

Retire the pop-up face!!

[kcmets]

I just think it's funny how many people forget how frustrating he was at times.

Hell, we share the same name and people always asked why I didn't have a jersey.

Yeah, uh no. My Mom loved him, particularly his curly locks.



And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

[G-Fafif]

41 is the only number to come attached to the street where the Mets live. I don't think any other number's gonna join Seaver Way in achieving that honor.

[stevejrogers]

=kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53]
I just think it's funny how many people forget how frustrating he was at times.

Hell, we share the same name and people always asked why I didn't have a jersey.

Yeah, uh no. My Mom loved him, particularly his curly locks.



And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

[Frayed Knot]

=kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53] [mom] loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

[kcmets]

Eww, just eww ...

[batmagadanleadoff]

=stevejrogers post_id=22903 time=1569441320 user_id=57]
=kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53]
I just think it's funny how many people forget how frustrating he was at times.

Hell, we share the same name and people always asked why I didn't have a jersey.

Yeah, uh no. My Mom loved him, particularly his curly locks.



And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Koosman is the first of the retirees whose number was reissued after he stopped using it.



Quite an illustrious list:

Wayne Twitchell

Mark Bomback

Danny Boitano

Ed Lynch

Manny Hernandez

Dave Liddell

Kevin Baez

Tony Castillo

Kevin Baez

Tito Navarro

Mike Birkbeck

Don Florence

Greg McMichael

Jeff Tam

Grant Roberts

Manny Aybar

Henry Owens

Kelly Stinnett

Chip Ambres

Willie Collazo

Darren O'Day

Ken Takahashi

Manny Acosta

Dale Thayer

Collin McHugh

Juan Centeno

Sean Gilmartin

Mickey Callaway

[stevejrogers]

Also other than Koosman, the number of Mets whom have worn the number is 36.



Meaning Mickey Callaway should have exclaimed:



“I'M 37!”



Mickey: “THE METS ISSUED THE NUMBER I WEAR 37 TIMES!”



Random guy he said it to: “In a row?”

[G-Fafif]

Other than Lynch and maybe McMichael, basically nobody had anything resembling sustained competence post-Koosman, and I'd include Callaway in that cohort.

[Vic Sage]

=kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53]
And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

[Edgy MD]

Mothers and Gary Carter. Gary Carter and mothers.



It was a phucking phenomenon is what it was.

[Frayed Knot]

Even Carter's curly locks were phony.

[Edgy MD]

It's odd. He came out of a decade that was full of guys working on their public image really hard (sometimes tastelessly) with an eye toward establishing a legend to build on (and, more cynically, cash in on) throughout. Garvey, Jackson, Rose, Jim Palmer too. To a lesser extent, Seaver and maybe Joe Morgan.



In many ways, playing into the nineties, he was the last of that era. By Ken Griffey's dawn, with multiple card companies, ESPN going professional, video games, et al., you could just largely play your game and let your publicist or agent make a legend out of you.



Nowadays, in order to create a persona that's bigger than your performance, you have to kill it on Twitter or something. Getting the moms, though, remains a tough row to hoe.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind. I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned. I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote: Yes: 1. Beltran 2. Wright 3. Carter Maybe: 1. Gooden No to everyone else. Can you explain your case for why Carter deserves to have his number retired but Koosman doesn't? I have no idea what Carter did to deserve to have his number retired that Koosman himself didn't do 25 times over. Carter is third on your list? I'm not sure Carter cracks my first dozen. [Carter] meets the criteria of "Hall of Famer who played a significant part of his career with the Mets". World Champion....

I know that you changed your mind on Carter. And good on you. Smart and open-minded is where it's at. But there's a Met that fits your criteria (if you still stand by it -- "Hall of Famer who played a significant part of his career with the Mets". World Champion.... to a perfect tee. And his name hasn't come up a single time in this whole discussion. Which goes to show how silly rules are, especially here, where the owners can do whatever they want. You paint yourself into a corner with rules and then have to backpedal for the guy who fits the bill even though you think his number shouldn't be retired or the guy like David Wright, who deserves to have his number retired more than any other Met whose number hasn't been retired, but doesn't meet the criteria. Oh, and that Met I was talking about that no one's mentioned is

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Nolan Ryan.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

Plus Jared Kelenic

[batmagadanleadoff]

=stevejrogers post_id=22883 time=1569431516 user_id=57]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22860 time=1569424118 user_id=68]
=stevejrogers post_id=22854 time=1569422760 user_id=57]
I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter.



Did he stiff you?



Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?