Let's huddle here and talk... Syndergaard

[Centerfield]

This is stupid. Just sign some hitters.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: This is stupid. Just sign some hitters.

Yeah, that's the problem. Can't have both.

[Centerfield]

I fear that “aggressive” won’t mean move aggressively to improve the team.

It will mean make stupid trades where our best result is to tread water. While keeping payroll at its current level.

[Mex17]

This is not a rumor, just an example of what I would accept as a situation where they would move Syndergaard. . .

Sign Keuchel, Eovaldi, or Morton first. Then offer Syndergaard and Frazier to Houston in exchange for Bregman and a mid-tier pitching prospect.

I doubt that the Astros would do it, but that is the type of thing that I would be alright with in theory.

[smg58]

I can only react so much to rumors. Let's see what actually happens.

I'm not in principle against trading Thor, it's just that I can't see too many scenarios where it would make the 2019 team better. I'm also not ready for a teardown, either. And there are two free agent third basemen (counting Machado) I would rather have than the best free agent starting pitcher. (And I would rather have Syndergaard than the best available starting pitcher, too.)

[Centerfield]

Kevin Kernan in the Post:

https://nypost.com/2018/11/19/noah-syndergaard-trade-talk-proves-mets-approach-all-wrong/

The starting pitching is the Mets’ only strength right now. Don’t weaken it by trading Syndergaard. How about strengthening it by going out on the free-agent market and picking up more talent, more offense, more defense?

I guess in theory, it's possible that a trade exists what will make the Mets better now as well as the future. It would mean that they get a player (or players) that collectively outweigh the value provided by Syndergaard now, as well as in future years. Which I guess means that the target players are younger.

But Noah is pretty damn good right now. And he's young, and under team control for the next three years. So why would another team give up a player (or players) who are better and younger?

My biggest fear is that they make a stupid trade that will improve one of the other areas, cost us Noah Fucking Syndergaard, then that will be the justification for not increasing payroll.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Sources: As they consider Noah Syndergaard trade, Mets exploring free agent pitching options to replace him

Andy Martino wrote: Trading Syndergaard -- which is no sure thing to happen, even though the Mets are exploring it -- would only be one piece in a larger strategy. The Mets could obtain a package of prospects and major leaguers for Syndergaard, then replace him with a free agent such as Patrick Corbin, J.A. Happ, Dallas Keuchel, or Nathan Eovaldi.

Andy Martino wrote: The Mets are not close to signing any of these pitchers, and would likely have to make a trade before doing so. But GM Brodie Van Wagenen has been in touch with the agents for many free agent starters, keeping a dialogue open in case of a vacancy.

[Centerfield]

Sources: As they consider Noah Syndergaard trade, Mets exploring free agent pitching options to replace him Andy Martino wrote: Trading Syndergaard -- which is no sure thing to happen, even though the Mets are exploring it -- would only be one piece in a larger strategy. The Mets could obtain a package of prospects and major leaguers for Syndergaard, then replace him with a free agent such as Patrick Corbin, J.A. Happ, Dallas Keuchel, or Nathan Eovaldi. Andy Martino wrote: The Mets are not close to signing any of these pitchers, and would likely have to make a trade before doing so. But GM Brodie Van Wagenen has been in touch with the agents for many free agent starters, keeping a dialogue open in case of a vacancy.

It's cute how Andy Martino still writes like he's a reporter, and not on the payroll of the Wilpons.

[Fman99]

Yeah, trade the good young players. Makes perfect fucking sense.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Well, it might make sense, if they get multiple good young players in return. They certainly shouldn't trade him for a Ben Zobrist, but if they could get a younger guy who projects to be an MVP type? (This is what they're saying about Tatis Jr.) It's a risk of course, but given that Noah has missed big chunks of the last two seasons, it's also a risk for the team that's getting him.

I don't know what my preference is here. I'm glad I don't have to make these kinds of decisions. I hope that the guy who does knows what he's doing. That, of course, remains to be seen.

[Frayed Knot]

Maybe the closest parallel I can come up with was the Pirates trading Gerrit Cole to Houston 11 months ago.

- The 2017 Pirates (74 wins) and the 2018 Mets (77) were coming off similar seasons. Pirates improved by 7 games this past year minus their ace pitcher
- Syndergaard currently has one extra year of club control (three) as compared to Cole at the time he was dealt (two)
- Cole had 127 ML starts to his name when dealt with 59 Wins, 3.50 ERA, 1.22 WHIP; Syndergaard currently sitting at 86 / 37 / 3.03 / 1.21


The Pirates received four players in the deal:
Jason Martin, OF, 21 y/o (at the time of the trade) -- a former 8th round draft pick who at the time was a A+/AA player w/Houston. Played well this year in a half season of AA [913 OPS] not so much after AAA promotion [589]
Michael Feliz, RHP -- 24 y/o Dominican reliever with two (now three) seasons of ML ball under his belt, none particularly successful
Colin Moran, 3B, 24 -- Former 6th overall draft pick by the Marlins, was a back half of the top-100 type of prospect in '17 with a handful of ML ABs. 2018 was his first full year of ML ball where he put up a so-so .277/.340/.407
Joe Musgrave, RHP, 24 -- Another former 1st round pick (46th overall). Mix of starting and relief in two partial seasons w/HOU. 19 starts; 4.06 ERA; 1.18 WHIP for Pitt in '18

[Benjamin Grimm]

I would want a better return than that.

Mets are saying they'd have to get a "lopsided" package for Syndergaard. I'm not sure what that means in practice. If the deal overwhelmingly favors the Mets, the other team isn't likely to sign off on it.

[Mex17]

Andy Martino wrote: The Mets are not close to signing any of these pitchers, and would likely have to make a trade before doing so. But GM Brodie Van Wagenen has been in touch with the agents for many free agent starters, keeping a dialogue open in case of a vacancy.

This seems backwards to me. You probably should sign the replacement first, then you are free to make the trade.

In reality, you really should make sure that both are in place before you move ahead with either one.

[Mex17]

Frayed Knot wrote: Maybe the closest parallel I can come up with was the Pirates trading Gerrit Cole to Houston 11 months ago. - The 2017 Pirates (74 wins) and the 2018 Mets (77) were coming off similar seasons. Pirates improved by 7 games this past year minus their ace pitcher - Syndergaard currently has one extra year of club control (three) as compared to Cole at the time he was dealt (two) - Cole had 127 ML starts to his name when dealt with 59 Wins, 3.50 ERA, 1.22 WHIP; Syndergaard currently sitting at 86 / 37 / 3.03 / 1.21 The Pirates received four players in the deal: Jason Martin, OF, 21 y/o (at the time of the trade) -- a former 8th round draft pick who at the time was a A+/AA player w/Houston. Played well this year in a half season of AA [913 OPS] not so much after AAA promotion [589] Michael Feliz, RHP -- 24 y/o Dominican reliever with two (now three) seasons of ML ball under his belt, none particularly successful Colin Moran, 3B, 24 -- Former 6th overall draft pick by the Marlins, was a back half of the top-100 type of prospect in '17 with a handful of ML ABs. 2018 was his first full year of ML ball where he put up a so-so .277/.340/.407 Joe Musgrave, RHP, 24 -- Another former 1st round pick (46th overall). Mix of starting and relief in two partial seasons w/HOU. 19 starts; 4.06 ERA; 1.18 WHIP for Pitt in '18

From the way all this is being reported, that's not going to happen. Either we are getting a controllable, established, All-Star level righthanded bat or Syndergaard is staying right where he is.

[Mex17]

https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/heres-what-mets-want-in-noah-syndergaard-trade-and-five-teams-that-have-it/300903758

I don't want Simmons.

I probably don't want Andujar because of his defense.

I don't think that the Braves are a good fit because of the intra-division thing and because the Braves players are totally pre arbitration. (It's also debatable in my mind if the Mets would have to be the ones to kick more into the package because of that. . .you can just as well argue that the Braves would have to put in more since Syndergaard has more of a track record in the majors)

I don't see why Bregman would not be an option if Correa and Springer are (and if Bryant also is from the Cubs side).

[Mex17]

Sources: As they consider Noah Syndergaard trade, Mets exploring free agent pitching options to replace him Andy Martino wrote: Trading Syndergaard -- which is no sure thing to happen, even though the Mets are exploring it -- would only be one piece in a larger strategy. The Mets could obtain a package of prospects and major leaguers for Syndergaard, then replace him with a free agent such as Patrick Corbin, J.A. Happ, Dallas Keuchel, or Nathan Eovaldi. Andy Martino wrote: The Mets are not close to signing any of these pitchers, and would likely have to make a trade before doing so. But GM Brodie Van Wagenen has been in touch with the agents for many free agent starters, keeping a dialogue open in case of a vacancy. It's cute how Andy Martino still writes like he's a reporter, and not on the payroll of the Wilpons.

That tells me that this has teeth. That the Mets want this info out there.

[Frayed Knot]

Mex17 wrote: I don't see why Bregman would not be an option if Correa and Springer are (and if Bryant also is from the Cubs side).

Bregman is 1-1/2 years younger than Noah, comes with an extra year of team control (4 vs 3) and already has a Top-5 MVP season under his belt at age 24
He out-OPS'd Correa by 200 points and Springer by 150 this past year and out-WAR'd both by a lot [6.9 vs 1.7 vs 2.7]

Bottom line is that I suspect Houston would want more than Syndergaard in a deal (since we're just making up trades here anyway) and that, given his age, accomplishments,
and potential future, Bregman could be as close to an untouchable as there is in the game right now.

[Mex17]

Bregman vs. Bryant. It's pretty close when you click onto the projections.

https://www.fantasypros.com/mlb/compare/kris-bryant-alex-bregman.php

[Frayed Knot]

Bryant's coming out of an off (and injured) season, is several years older than Bregman and is one year closer to FA-gency.
Plus I think that maybe there's a sense that pitchers and strategists may be starting to catch up to Bryant's kind of "four fly balls per game" type of hitting and that Bregman's more
contact/full field style [85 K in 700+ PA in 2018 vs 107/450 for KB] is the better one to bet on going forward.

[Frayed Knot]

One Syndergaard rumor -- and by rumor I mean someone (Anthony Castrovince at mlb.com in this case) making stuff up because it might be the type of trade that could work for both sides -- is to Cincy for Raisel Iglesias and Nick Senzel

Iglesias was Cincy's Opening Day starter back in 2016 though has pretty much been a reliever since and the Reds primary closer over the last two-plus seasons (58 saves in 2017 + 18)
A Cuban signed in 2015 and who'll turn 29 just after New Year's, the Reds just this week signed him to an arbitration-years contract which will take him/them through 2021 at about $8 mil/per.
Whether that means they're more likely to deal him or less likely is anyone's guess.

Senzel is their top prospect and one of the best in all of baseball -- MLB, BA, & BP all had him at #7 last winter
A 23 y/o out of Knoxville, TN and the 2nd overall pick in 2016 out of U-Tenn, the 3Bman (and sometimes 2B) was doing nothing to dim his rep this season [hitting .310/.378/.509 at AAA Louisville] until
a busted thumb curtailed his 2018 season at just under 200 ABs and possibly delayed his ML debut as well.
From John Sickels (on 11/21): Grade A/A-: hit .310/.378/.509 with six homers, 19 walks, 38 strikeouts, eight steals in 171 at-bats in Triple-A until season ended early due to broken finger; also missed time with vertigo;
bat looks MLB-ready, hits for power, hits for average, controls the strike zone, no clear weaknesses; can steal some bases, too; also adapted well to playing second base, shifting over from third;
only thing that worries me is the vertigo issue; ETA 2019.
Be a nice bookend on either side of Rosario



Make of all that what you want.
Again, there's nothing to indicate that this is even under discussion but it's the type of trade that could work and I think probably a reasonable haul to expect.
It's then just a question of whether either side might want it to work.
Reds, due to their ballpark, have a tough time luring pitching to them and their more promising drafted guys either haven't worked out (Homer Bailey) or have yet to work out (Robert Stephenson)
For the Mets it (hopefully) fills two holes at the expense of creating one.

[Mex17]

One Syndergaard rumor -- and by rumor I mean someone (Anthony Castrovince at mlb.com in this case) making stuff up because it might be the type of trade that could work for both sides -- is to Cincy for Raisel Iglesias and Nick Senzel Iglesias was Cincy's Opening Day starter back in 2016 though has pretty much been a reliever since and the Reds primary closer over the last two-plus seasons (58 saves in 2017 + 18) A Cuban signed in 2015 and who'll turn 29 just after New Year's, the Reds just this week signed him to an arbitration-years contract which will take him/them through 2021 at about $8 mil/per. Whether that means they're more likely to deal him or less likely is anyone's guess. Senzel is their top prospect and one of the best in all of baseball -- MLB, BA, & BP all had him at #7 last winter A 23 y/o out of Knoxville, TN and the 2nd overall pick in 2016 out of U-Tenn, the 3Bman (and sometimes 2B) was doing nothing to dim his rep this season [hitting .310/.378/.509 at AAA Louisville] until a busted thumb curtailed his 2018 season at just under 200 ABs and possibly delayed his ML debut as well. From John Sickels (on 11/21): Grade A/A-: hit .310/.378/.509 with six homers, 19 walks, 38 strikeouts, eight steals in 171 at-bats in Triple-A until season ended early due to broken finger; also missed time with vertigo; bat looks MLB-ready, hits for power, hits for average, controls the strike zone, no clear weaknesses; can steal some bases, too; also adapted well to playing second base, shifting over from third; only thing that worries me is the vertigo issue; ETA 2019. Be a nice bookend on either side of Rosario Make of all that what you want. Again, there's nothing to indicate that this is even under discussion but it's the type of trade that could work and I think probably a reasonable haul to expect. It's then just a question of whether either side might want it to work. Reds, due to their ballpark, have a tough time luring pitching to them and their more promising drafted guys either haven't worked out (Homer Bailey) or have yet to work out (Robert Stephenson) For the Mets it (hopefully) fills two holes at the expense of creating one.

That sort of thing may be an even swap and it may even turn out to be a great trade in the end, but I'm not certain that the fanbase will accept it at the onset. You would be moving Syndergaard for a closer from a 2nd division team who no one knows the name of along with a prospect. It might be a tough sell to folks who, if they are accepting of a Syndergaard trade at all, want to see a real headline grabbing blockbuster. "Syndergaard for Springer!!" "Syndergaard for Bryant!!"

It might also cause some ire from folks who may perceive that the "cheap-ass Coupons" are getting a lesser closer who makes less money instead of just going out there and getting Kimbrel or Britton.

I am assuming that, if Senzel is coming back, then the plan would be for him to start in Syracuse while Frazier finished out his contract as the starting third baseman at least at the onset of the season?

[smg58]

It would be an even trade. I like both Senzel and Iglesias. It would be fair, though, to ask if it satisfies either team's immediate needs. If the Mets intend to win now, grabbing even an excellent prospect whose time at AAA last year was limited by injury might not be the best route. And are the Reds in a position to deal 6+ years of Senzel for 3 years of Syndergaard?

And it brings us back to the fact that there are two free agent third basemen who could help us win now, and no free agent pitchers I would rather have going forward than Syndergaard.

[Mex17]

smg58 wrote: there are two free agent third basemen who could help us win now

Here is a fair question. . .

With age and injury history taken into consideration but nothing else (such as "trade vs. free agent") being considered, why choose Donaldson specifically over Tatis, Senzel, or Bryant?

[Edgy MD]

I assume because of your analysis of his track record and scouting reports.

Also, count me as a fan who won't be impressed by a Mets team that just goes out there and gets a Kimbrel or Britton. Landing name-brand closers has been a fool's errand for this team.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Trading a good starter for a good reliever is something that an idiot like Omar Minaya would do. Thank God those days are... oh, fuck.

[smg58]

Mex17 wrote: smg58 wrote: there are two free agent third basemen who could help us win now Here is a fair question. . . With age and injury history taken into consideration but nothing else (such as "trade vs. free agent") being considered, why choose Donaldson specifically over Tatis, Senzel, or Bryant?

It ultimately depends on what your priorities are. I think Donaldson would give you a much better chance of winning in 2019, risks notwithstanding, than Tatis or Senzel. But if your goal is to put together a winning team in the early 2020s, you could easily justify trading Syndergaard for a package led by Tatis or Senzel.

Bryant is a different monster. He's a better player than Donaldson right now, and when healthy is at least as good as Machado. Here, I don't think you can remove the "trade" vs. "free agent" context. Syndergaard alone won't get you Bryant. Syndergaard and Wheeler might not get you Bryant. Donaldson would only cost money, and possibly only a short-term commitment at that.

[Frayed Knot]

Mex17 wrote: That sort of thing may be an even swap and it may even turn out to be a great trade in the end, but I'm not certain that the fanbase will accept it at the onset. You would be moving Syndergaard for a closer from a 2nd division team who no one knows the name of along with a prospect. It might be a tough sell to folks who, if they are accepting of a Syndergaard trade at all, want to see a real headline grabbing blockbuster. "Syndergaard for Springer!!" "Syndergaard for Bryant!!"

The fan base would be best judging this trade (or any trade) on its merits alone rather than for the headlines and/or the insta-buzz it would give. And the front office would be even dopier for making, or failing to
make, a deal based on those kinds of perceptions. If it's the right deal, do it! Lots of great trades weren't liked at the time and some were opening mocked. Ask Yanqui fans if they want to go back and un-do
the Gerald Williams for Paul O'Neill deal (or sub-in Bernie Williams instead) because they sure did at the time.
There was an old line attributed, I believe, to Bill Veeck, that if you listen to the fans you wind up sitting with them.

[Benjamin Grimm]

The trade that brought Syndergaard to the Mets was unpopular at the time that it was made.

[Fman99]

I think trading him for anything less than one of the 10-15 best hitters in baseball would be a tragic error. I also fully expect it to happen because if there's one thing the Mets front office knows, it's tragic errors.

[smg58]

Frayed Knot wrote: There was an old line attributed, I believe, to Bill Veeck, that if you listen to the fans you wind up sitting with them.

That's a great line.