Frayed Knot

From what I've seen of both his SNL & movie career (admittedly not a lot) he always strikes me as a talented guy who spends much of his time in search of better material.

Well Green was ranked lower than LoDuca because we (whoever chose to participate) ranked him that way. The final results showed Green to be the 21st best Met in 2006 while LoDuca was 6th best and their relative playing time was certainly a big factor in determining that. So, IOW, no. Green doesn't get his final score further altered based on his shorter NYM season because the score he received already reflects it. * and I just became Ed Lynch

Link to CPF Ranking Project in [u:fm7e4qp8]Numeric[/u:fm7e4qp8] order: http://www.kcmets.com/CPFRankingProj/numrank07.pdf Link to CPF Ranking Project in [u:fm7e4qp8]Alphabetic[/u:fm7e4qp8] order: http://www.kcmets.com/CPFRankingProj/alpharank07.pdf (both lists now updated to include results of 2007 season)

An update is in the works

Nymr83 wrote: Didn't Gore make money in oil? Not oil, tobacco.

Are the points derived from a ranking in any given year affected by the number of games the team won that year or by how far it advanced into the postseason? Both. The points accumulated by rank (30 down to 1) are multiplied by the wins for the team that season plus a sliding scale for "bonus" points for post-season success. For example, the 10th best player on a 90-win team would receive 50% more points than his equivelant from a 60-win team. So the system does (to a certain extent) take into consideration not only where a player finished in a season but also to whom they're being compared. This doesn't necessarily address my main complaint, however, which is that, even under an adjustment based on the performance of a team, a player can only accumulate points and cannot lose points. Once points are earned, they're there for good. The points earned by a player are essentially meaningless except how they relate to others. If we were to change it to say a scale from +15 points down to -15 (to satisfy your desire to see lower ranked players punished) it wouldn't really change anything, it would merely lower the scores for everyone while keeping the order of them more or less the same.

Keep in mind Slugs that a player's ranking depends on several factors, not just longevity. - the rank (if any) in each year he plays - the success of the team(s) that he's on - the number of years he plays So who you're beating matters to a degree in addition to just where you place. IOW, a lousy player in a lousy year won't score as high as his counterpart bottom feeder in a good year. Same with a middle of the pack guy from 1962 compared to a middle guy from 1986, and top guys vs a different top guy, etc. Trax had 6 years here and had decent to good scores in 4 of them -- and those years were responsible for the bulk of his eventual standing. His last two seasons (not coincidently the freshest in our minds) produced low scores and boosted him only an additional 8 or 9 spots over where he would have been had he not played at all in those seasons. The other thing you have to remember is that MOST of the players in NYM history played just one season (or part of one). Less than 50 players (out of almost 800) lasted as long as 6 seasons as Trax did. So yeah, that alone gives him a leg up on most of the pack.

Longevity is an asset in addition to performance. We're measuring (or attempting to) each player's total contribution while a Met, meaning that a guy here for as many as 17 seasons will generally leave a bigger mark than one here for just a few seasons, even if those were real good seasons. P.S. The only manner in which I'm affecting this list is as the project's self-appointed statistician - in much the same way Yancy is with our PotG. My opinions don't carry any more weight about where each player lands than anyone else who decides to participate in each year's discussion. In a way, this thing is a lot like political elections; you may not like the results, but you're largely responsible for them. I just compile the numbers [insert Katherine Harris joke here]

You might want to point out to your friends that the list of ours they saw was two years old but has now been updated to include the last two seasons. So there's been some movement, particularly among recent players like Piazza. The differences between our list and theirs are fairly predictable and largely explainable through popularity & longevity. When we first concocted this project, the idea was to get as close as we could to some kind of objective list of all time Mets instead of letting personal preferences creep into the outcomes. IOW, we looked at the individual years and then saw how they added up to the whole rather than attempting to judge the whole in retrospect. That sum-of-the-parts approach also rewards the longer lasting players via the cumulative result of all his years as a Met, while the top-down method is sometimes affected by the fact that familiarity often breeds a degree of contempt among fans. Carter is one of the best examples. He was obviously popular as a result of being an '86-er, but was only here 5 seasons and was really only any good in 3 of them. It would be almost impossible for someone like him - or the even shorter lasting Olerud - to finish ahead of the likes of Franco or say Sid F. who combined for some 26 years in the uni. Meanwhile a guy like Benitez was a polarizing figure during his time who will never win any popularity contests, but he was judged to be one of the top performers during 4 of his 5 Met seasons.

Looks good mon, thanks. You probably want to kill the thread that has the links to those out of date lists that's currently in the Rankings forum.

Well there are still a few kinks to work out - like re-inserting those top-50 player icons which, some may have noticed, have suddenly gone missing - but not only have the 2006 Rankings been merged into our all-time list but (after falling two years behind) we've also updated the system to include both the 2006 AND 2005 results into our ranking levels project. In all, there are 30-some new names among our 'Top-500' list - which naturally means that 30-some chumps fell off the back end. There was also some shifting of inactive players within the list due to re-adjusting some old results. [u:bh6m1myh]SUMMARY[/u:bh6m1myh] This is the first year in a while (with Piazza, Franco & Leiter now gone) that we have no active players near the very top of the list. We do, however, have three new players cracking the Top 50 ... so get those personalized icons ready for: #40 Tom Glavine (Willets will be thrilled) #47 Steve Trachsel (already has one I believe) and #50 on the nose ... David Wright!! 2006 was a busy year for newbies, so welcomes for: #116 Carlos Delgado #127 Paul LoDuca #137 Billy Wagner #156 Jose Valentin #170 Endy Chavez #200 John Maine #214 Orlando Hernandez #227 Duaner Sanchez #343 Shawn Green #369 Julio Franco #388 Oliver Perez #404 Guillermo Mota #427 Lastings Milledge [u:bh6m1myh]Other current players[/u:bh6m1myh]: #52 Jose Reyes ... wait til next year for your icon kid #64 Carlos Beltran ... replaces Eddie Murray (#83) as best ever 2-year Met #81 Pedro Martinez #113 Aaron Heilman #233 Pedro Feliciano #272 Ramon Castro [u:bh6m1myh]Over & Out[/u:bh6m1myh]: #60 Cliff Floyd #220 Roberto Hernandez #240 Chad Bradford #273 Darren Oliver #287 Xavier Nady #351 Chris Woodward #448 Brian Bannister #501 Alay Soler (JUST MISSES being our opening guy in the rotation!!!) [u:bh6m1myh]Mileposts[/u:bh6m1myh]: The overall list now contains 555 names (500 of which are used for our levels project here) #100 - Rico Brogna #200 - John Maine #278 (the midpoint) - Jim Fregosi #300 - Mardie Cornejo #400 - Matt Ginter #500 - Jim Gosger (the new "lead-off" man) #555 - Gus Bell (forever the anchor man) As usual, about half the list consists of guys who only garnered points in one season. The 1 year Mets (273 of them) range from Mike Hampton at the 111th spot (Delgado falls just short) down to Gus Bell at the bottom (#555) 2 years: 109 players: Carlos Beltran at #64 (replaces Eddie Murray as the best 2-year man) to David West (#520) 3 years: 61 players: John Olerud (#37) - Dave Schneck (#383) 4 years: 38 players: Tom Glavine #40 (replaces Gary Gentry as top 4yr dog) - Tim Bogar (#261) 5 years: 26 players: Armando Benitez (#24) - Teddy Martinez (#189) 6 years: 14 players: David Cone (#20) - Mike Jorgensen (#213) 7 years: 9 players: Keith Hernandez (#12) - Ken Boswell (#94) 8 years: 9 players: Darryl Strawberry (#4) - Wally Backman (#55) 9 years: 4 players: Cleon Jones (#7) - Rusty Staub (#19) 10 years: 4 players: Sid Fernandez (#9) - Craig Swan (#41) 11 years: 2 players: Dwight Gooden (#2) - Jerry Koosman (#3) 12 years: 4 players: Tom Seaver (#1) - Ron Hodges (#132) 13 years: 1 player: John Franco (#6) 16 years: 1 player: Ed Kranepool (#11) Will try to get copies of both alphabetic and numeric version of the entire list posted in the near future.

That one was a gimme. The mistake people make in trying to predict these things is that they actually see the movies and then base their guesses on who they think did the best job. WRONG!! The sentimental choice, the politically correct one, or the whose-turn-it-is method always work better. btw, How do you suppose all the privite jets that were used to bring the stars to the show fits in with the "Greening of the Oscars" campaign?

"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy goots and say that" -- Steve Earle Perhaps a bit of hyperbole, but it's a quote on the DVD cover of Be Here to Love Me, a interesting and well-done documentary on the work and troubled life of singer/songwriter Townes Van Zandt. Townes had various mental problems even going back to his childhood, conditions that were quite possibly exacerbated later on by ill-advised shock-treatments and most definitely by years of drug and alcohol abuse plus the trials of a life spent largely on the road. But, despite all his troubles and frequent lone-wolf status, he had no shortage of admirers (or wives for that matter) and, particularly within the music community, his popularity far exceeded his otherwise stunted career. Townes remains, now 7+ years after his death, a kind of godfather emeritus to that largely Texas-based country/folk/blues music scene.

I guess it's time to put this one to bed 2006RANKINGSPOINTSPLAYER30Carlos Beltran29Jose Reyes28David Wright27Carlos Delgado26Tom Glavine25Paul LoDuca24Billy Wagner23Jose Valentin21.5Endy Chavez21.5Pedro Martinez20Aaron Heilman19John Maine18Orlando Hernandez17Duaner Sanchez16Chad Bradford15Pedro Feliciano14Darren Oliver13Cliff Floyd12Xavier Nady11Steve Trachsel10Shawn Green9Julio Franco8Oliver Perez7Guillermo Mota6Lastings Milledge5Brian Bannister4Chris Woodward3Alay Soler2Ramon Castro1Roberto Hernandez

Stallone again ... naturally.

This needed to be rescued before it fell off into archive-land. I'd like to make this the last call for opinions - seeing as how the season is 3 months gone now - and finalize this list. So anyone who wants to add an opinion or argue a point on the existing list-to-date (see below) do so now or forever hold your peace. The composite so far, built from 9 submitted lists plus our PotY project: 30 - Beltran 29 - Reyes 28 - Wright 27 - Delgado 26 - Glavine 25 - LoDuca 24 - Wagner 23 - Valentin 21.5 - Chavez 21.5 - Martinez 20 - Heilman 19 - Maine 18 - O. Hernandez 17 - Sanchez 16 - Bradford 15 - Feliciano 14 - Oliver 13 - Nady 12 - Floyd 11 - Trachsel 10 - Green 9 - Franco 8 - Perez 7 - Mota 6 - Milledge 5 - Bannister 4 - Woodward 3 - Soler 2 - Castro 1 - R Hernandez

"Eddie Murphy was fabulous in Dreamgirls ... He's the favorite to win Best Supporting Actor" Nah, Alan Arkin is. Always bet on the old guy to beat the young guy, particularly in Supporting awards. "I was also surprised that Borat was in the "adapted" category. I guess it's because it's based on a character he played on Da Ali G Show." Yup. It's considered adapted even if you adapt it from yourself. Billy Bob Thorton had this a few years back with 'Slingblade' which he extrapolated from a stand-up piece he had been doing. "Jackie Earle Fuckin' Haley! Wow!" He plays a child molester.

The composite we've got to date includes the 8 lists submitted so far: (TransMonk, VicSage, SeaWolf, Valadius, FK, Nymr, Dickshot & Yancy) plus one more from our PotY stats (Yancy's daily polls). I'm not including marathon's yet until we hear back from him on a few things. Below is the consensus from those lists along with the cases where individual votes differed most from the group -- which isn't to imply that those are "wrong" neccesarily but to provide a jumping off point for folks to defend or object to various votes. This first group looks to be fairly well set where they are. Any new lists submitted are unlikely to change things much and none of the individual votes differred by more than a slot or two (except where noted) 30 - Beltran 29 - Reyes 28 - Wright 27 - Delgado 26 - Glavine 25 - LoDuca 24 - Wagner {the PotY list had him at #19, 5 spots lower than our consensus} 23 - Valentin {TransMonk has him 4 spots lower} The above are also a sizeable gap ahead of the remainder. 22 - Chavez {TM -6; SW -6; FK -7} 21 - Heilman {Val -4; PotY -5} 20 - Pedro {TM -6; SW -6; JD -6} 19 - Maine {TM -4; SW -4; PotY -4} 18 - OHernandez {TM +4; Vic -4; Nymr -7; YSG +4; PotY +4} 17 - Sanchez {TM +6; Val -6; JD +6; PotY -4} 16 - Feliciano {TM +8; Val -4; JD +6; YSG -4; PotY -5} 15 - Bradford {JD +6} {mid-sized gap here} 14 - Nady {Val +5} 13 - Oliver {TM +5; SW +8; Nymr +5; 12 - Trachsel {YSG +4; PotY +9} 11 - Floyd {Nymr +6; YSG +4; PotY +7} {big gap} 10 - Green {PotY -6} 9 - Franco 8 - Mota {VS +4; SW -4; Nymr -8 (not on list); PotY -7} 7 - Perez {TM -4; SW -4; YSG +4; PotY -7 (off list)} * * * * 6 - Bannister 5 - Milledge {PotY +5} 4 - Woodward {PotY +4} 3 - Soler {PotY +6} then tied for last place: 1.5 - Castro 1.5 - R Hernandez Outside looking in: Tucker - got votes from VS (4), SW (4), FK (1), Nymr (1), JD (4) Bell - YSG (3), PotY (5) Williams - FK (3); YSG (2); PotY (3) Julio - VS (3); JD (2); Pelfrey - Nymr (3) ... the rest of the crew was shut out

Yo marathon, are you willing to defend; - Oliver above Wagner (4 slots), Heilman (6), Sanchez (7), Feliciano (10) & Bradford(11)???? - Trachsel over all of the above plus LoDuca, Valentin & Maine??? - Votes for Bell, Williams & Ring, but none for Green, Mota & Franco??? - Soler above Bradford & Feliciano???

I'm on it. I've got a running total of the consensus to date and plan to post a summary of where we're at in the next day or two.

So anything ever happen with that update/sequel - 32 Candles? - that was supposedly in the works -- or was that just a figment of someone's fantasy?

That's kinda where I'm at too. I've never seen 'Ali G' so I really have no pre-conceived attitude towards this character, but the whole idea of a fish out of water type creating these embarrassing situations that are funny because he/they are so clueless just doesn't appeal to me.

30 - Beltran 29 - Reyes 28 - Wright 27 - Delgado 26 - Glavine 25 - Wagner 24 - LoDuca 23 - Martinez 22 - Maine 21 - Heilman 20 - Valentin 19 - Sanchez 18 - O Hernandez 17 - Bradford 16 - Feliciano 15 - Chavez 14 - Floyd 13 - Nady 12 - Trachsel 11 - Oliver 10 - Franco 9 - Green 8 - Perez 7 - Mota 6 - Woodward 5 - Milledge 4 - Bannister 3 - Williams 2 - Castro 1 - Tucker

Getting around to the hurlers ... Tough year to rate the pitchers, much tougher to order than the hitters; lotsa partial year guys. And, while 13 different starters may not have set any records, our crew involved 13 guys who made at least 3 starts each. THAT probably hasn't happened too often. Glavine - Led the team in wins (tied), starts & innings pitched. The only starter who lasted from day 1 thru the playoffs. Top pitcher in Win Shares. Wagner - I'm convinced now that no one will ever like the closer, but Wagner had a lower ERA, lower WHiP, Higher K/9, plus a lower BAA & SLGA than any of the other relievers all while usually working the money inning(s) Martinez - Great April, good May, then a slow decline into a big mess. But he was still 3rd on the team in IP with the best peripheral numbers anywhere. Maine - Part 1 of the booty from the Benson trade out-pitched the more heralded El Duque overall plus had a good post-season Heilman - One bad stretch in mid-season and a Game 7--9th inning HR can't ruin a good overall season Sanchez - I think some are giving Duaner short shrift here. Despite not being there for the 2nd half + playoffs, the 1st half games were really more important before the 2nd half cruise control and he was absolutely dominant at time while pitching almost as many innings as some of the full-season types. O Hernandez - Occasionally erratic, but stabilized the rotation as injuries started to take hold ... then got injured himself Bradford - So boringly effective that you would find yourself stunned when he didn't come through. Feliciano - He and Bradford almost have to be listed side-by-side. They just have to. Trachsel - I wonder how often a team leader in wins gets put this far down the list. Ahhh run support! Oliver - All purpose lefty compiled a lot of innings while pitching very few important ones Perez - Exciting & frustrating, often at the same time Mota - Leaned on heavily in the playoffs for someone who had all of 18 IPs in the regular season Bannister - Only 8 games/6 starts. Not many hits but lots of baserunners. Williams - A lot like Perez w/o the playoff boost R Hernandez - Grabbed at a desperation deal at the deadline, then used only sparingly. Julio - After Met fans decided they hated him in advance, they almost didn't seem to notice when he strung together a bunch of good games Pelfrey - The future isn't yet Bell - Alternated looking good and getting pasted Soler - 8 starts, a couple of gems but also 4 train-wrecks Ring - Showed a lot of promise, just in real small doses Outside looking in: Zambrano, Lima, Gonzalez, Owens, Fortunado, Humber Now I have to figure how to combine the two halves.

"Does postseason performance factor in?" [from the first post] ... "- post-season performance SHOULD be considered in your list, although to what degree is your choice" "These are nearly the same trait" Byte Me!