Centerfield

Greg Holland is also available. We should look to trade Ramos.

Edgy MD wrote: Well, since 1988, if that's really where we're measuring from, the Mets have typically had a top-ten payroll. I know that's cold comfort. Not at all! It shows that they can do it. Another $20 million or so lands them comfortably in the top 10. And $60 million came off the books this year. Even with arbitration raises, that could allow us to get two of Darvish, Wade Davis, JD Martinez, or Hosmer. And you still might have enough leftover to get your Lorenzo Cain.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: But maybe not suffering as much as they might be had they taken the very same argument from you 2 years ago and gone and signed Jason Heyward. I mean, its way more nuanced than this. The team that signed Jason Heyward has won a World Championship and played in three straight NLCS. We should all suffer so much. Because in addition to Heyward, they signed Jon Lester, and Dexter Fowler, and John Lackey, and Ben Zobrist. They ponied up and brought in a dominant closer. All of these guys pitched in along with a young core to create a champion and consistent contender. Top ten payroll. Big market team.

Ceetar wrote: You're also setting the bar for 'big free agent' rather high. What, they haven't signed any 10 year deals so they're cheap? There's a rare confluence of events in which a top 10 guy becomes available, in a Mets need, and is even remotely worth it. Should they throw 40/400 at Harper next year? Yes, it is a high, and somewhat arbitrary bar, but it's one that the other big market teams hit. I'm saying it's a move that the Mets don't have, at least not since Beltran, and they suffer as a result.

So it costs a first rounder then right? Definitely pass.

Since the 80's glory days, the Mets have only won in three different eras. The late 90's Piazza years, the Omar years, and our current team. During the Piazza years, the Mets maintained a top 10 payroll. Two post-season appearances, one World Series. 97 wins in '99, 94 in '00. In 2006, the Mets had a top 5 payroll. Again, 97 wins. Then Madoff. Once they slashed payroll, they went into a stretch where they were not competitive. In 2015 and 2016, the Mets came back to winning, and unlike before, did not have a top 10 payroll to back it up. But how good were they? In 2015, they were fortunate to win a very weak NL East. Their 90 wins would not have been enough to win in any other year since 2007. In 2016, they won the Wild Card with 87 wins.

Has played seven seasons (or parts thereof) and really only had 2 good years. Not that interested. Plus, big power numbers in a juiced ball year.

41Forever wrote: Would be an interesting analysis to look at the top free agent contract signed each off-season and look at how they panned out. The MFYs, for all their buying power, they signed a lot of bad contracts. They just have the ability to eat them better than most teams. I'm not sure the Mets are necessarily missing out by not hooking the biggest fish each year. Yeah, the Yankees had a ton of bad contracts this year. But they also got production from expensive guys like Tanaka, Chapman, and Sabathia. They went to the ALCS. Between Gonzalez, and Kazmir and Ryu, the Dodgers probably had the most in shit contracts this year. They went to Game 7 of the WS. The Red Sox are paying for Pablo Sandoval, the Cubs have Jason Heyward, the Nats paid $22 million Jayson Werth. I don't think signing a bad contract is all that fatal.

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Those back pages are so uninspiring, I'm not voting in this round. This is usually the case for Spring training covers. But I fear that this year, it's about to get worse.

And look, any one fan doesn't need to care how a team gets their players. That's anyone's prerogative. But it is absolutely proper for a fan, should they choose, to ask the Mets to answer for this. Because they are in no position to justify this behavior. For example, there are three ways to get on base. Hit, walk, reach on error. If you go to Ichiro in his prime and say, "Hey Ichiro, why don't you walk more?" Ichiro can say "Hey bitch, I hit .350 and this is my MVP trophy. Walk this dickhead." And you have nothing to say. But if you say hey Rey Ordonez, you struggle to reach a 600 OPS, why don't you try walking, Rey has nothing to say. If you go to the Mets and say, hey it's nice you've developed a nice core, and it's great that you are making trades and all, but why don't you try signing a top flight free agent like the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Dbacks, etc. They can't tell you they don't need to. A team that historically loses has no business not trying everything at its disposal. Seriously. In the last ten years, three winning seasons, and the highest win total is 90. DO SOMETHING!!!

Yeah, it's a difficult argument because of the fluid nature of those terms. I know. It's like the Supreme Court on porn when they say "I know it when I see it". I'm sure there's some way to quantify it, but I feel like we all kinda know who the superstars are. And it should definitely be their first big money contract. Not mid 30's free agency where they are looking for their second payday. And I get that the Mets have made trades to acquire players, and have developed stars, etc. But basically, why does a big market team deprive themselves of the easiest way to get talent? Winning a World Series is hard. You need elite players to be the best. Duh. There are three ways to get elite players: 1. Develop them 2. Trade for them 3. Sign them via free agency If you are a small market team, you can only do 1 and 2. But why does a team that plays in NY limit themselves to 1 and 2? That's the embarrassment. A big market team that does not take advantage of its built-in advantage.

seawolf17 wrote: Edgar Martinez? Yeah, everyone I think of is too old. Pretty sure Cal Ripken debuted before '91.

Lefty Specialist wrote: Knowing how things turned out makes these optimistic Spring Training covers all the more painful. Yup. The only one that still evokes feelings of hope is Club Amed.

Ok. I should clarify. When I mentioned the "five elite" in my original post, it was more tongue in cheek. I don't really consider Lorenzo Cain an elite free agent. The question that was raised (or at least, the one that I answered) was, do the Mets sign truly elite level free agents? I consider elite free agents to be superstars, signed during their prime. And I get that every free agent has some years behind them. But there is a difference between signing a superstar to his first contract in his mid to late 20's, and Pedro Martinez, who is in his mid thirties, looking for his second big money deal. And I don't think we should count "the best guy available that year". In some cases, that's Shin Soo Choo, and not a superstar. The Mets do re-sign their own. Piazza. David Wright. I think they re-signed Gooden. But they really do not bring in another team's superstar on a big money deal. Beltran. Bobby Bonilla. I think that's it.

I know it didn't turn out well. And it's a bit sad to look back on it now, but I love this cover:

But on that note...Hey! Let's get Dee Gordon!

Funny. I just looked up Coleman's stats too. .665 OPS as a Cardinal before signing with the Mets. Yeah, not elite.

Biggio On edit. Al’ers. Oops. Rmpl

Yeah, I’d be inclined to say none of those qualify. Pedro was a big name but clearly in decline. Jason Bay is the quintessential Mets free agent. Not elite, and signed past his prime. Was too young to remember Vince Coleman, but I doubt he was in the MVP discussion before signing.

It depends if you count re-signing your own guys. Cespedes was signed twice. Piazza once. I think Gooden? But if you are talking about signing a top tier free agent from another team, no, they never do this. Beltran. Bonilla. That's really it. And this speaks to why they don't win. A big market team spends aggressively. They sign top tier free agents and field competitive teams consistently. That's why the Yankees and Dodgers and Red Sox and Giants are in the playoffs consistently. Small market teams can't do this. So they rebuild. They scout aggressively, and after years of a rebuild, they have their chips fall in place and win. Astros. Cleveland. Kansas City. The Mets follow neither of these plans. They feign contention year after year, never going the distance to go all in, but never committing to an all out rebuild. So you get years of mediocrity. 2018 will be another of those seasons. They have chips in place to be competitive. They should spend the money to build a championship level team. If they don't, they should rebuild. Instead, they will spend just enough money to be competitive if everything breaks the right way. You can talk about injuries and all that crap. The fact is, the Mets have won 90 games exactly once in the last ten years. In 2015, they won 90 exactly. Every other year they win in the 70's or 80's. That is no accident. They are not trying to build a championship team. They are not trying to sustain excellence. That's why this team has a history of losing.

Oh. I meant what do you think it would take to get Votto. He had another stupid good year, but that's another year of his prime ticked off the ledger, and a year closer to his inevitable decline. Does Smith, Gsellman, Peterson get it done?

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Didn't you propose a Votto trade with Dominic Smith as the centerpiece? Mets take on the monster salary. I'd be all over that. Yeah, it's just not as attractive as it was two years ago. Looks like last year's proposal was Duda, Smith, Molina, and Goeddel. By the way, that's a great post LWFS ended that thread with. So what's your winter 2018 proposal?

Agreed on this (FK's post). The only thing I will add to that is that there is no immediate need to trade Smith if you sign another 1B. You can trade him this winter, or in spring training, or at the deadline, or next year. Playing another year of AAA is no problem for a 22 year old, and that way you keep him around if Hosmer gets hurt. But I think this is all moot. I think there is no chance the Mets 1B is anyone but Smith. He's cheap, and he's justifiable. There is no way the Mets would go out and spend money when they have a justifiable, in-house option. Good luck in 2018 Dom. Like KC said, lay off the extra bread.

2006 - Carlos Beltran connects on an Adam Wainwright pitch with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th in Game 7 of the NLCS. It's a hit. The hit is a laser into the RF corner that is bobbled. The winning run scores and the crowd goes wild. Absolute mayhem. In the uproar, real estate developer Donald Trump is tragically trampled to death. Ten years later, at a fundraiser at Trump Tower, Democratic Nominee Hillary Rodham Clinton recognizes a moment of silence for the 10 year anniversary of the death of her long-time supporter and friend. Then puts on her Mets hat and gives a cheer for the team, who is seeking their record 11th straight World Series Title.

Edgy MD wrote: I've spent two seasons arguing that they Mets should target an on-base machine like Votto intead of the hitters whose value is wrapped up in slugging. That's been fruitless, but I'd sure like an infielder with a high OBP. Didn't you propose a Votto trade with Dominic Smith as the centerpiece? Mets take on the monster salary. I'd be all over that. High OBP infielder who can leadoff and run a bit. That would be nice.