Justin Turner Deserves His Own Thread

[Centerfield]

So really, what the fuck happened in 2013? I know it's easy to pile on now, with Turner hitting GW home runs in the World Series, but it was a foolish move then, and the Mets deserve all the criticism they are getting.

An article at the time:

http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2013/12/mets_non-tendered_justin_turner_after_frustration_over_effort.html

The article reflects that this move was surprising. Turner was no all-star, but he hit 30 doubles in 117 games as a rookie. Injuries hampered him during the next two years, but in 2013, he filled in adequately at SS. His .280 average seemed Ruthian compared to Tejada and Omar Quintanilla. He had incredible versatility having started games at every infield position.

I hated the move then. Mainly because I thought he played ok at SS, and thought he was our best chance to get any offense from that position. His swing looked good ("hitterish", and I know I also said that about Victor Diaz, but whatever). And he was only going to cost about $800k. I mean, there is simply no reason to let a guy like that go. It's not like he was blocking anybody.

The article contains a quote from Sandy:

"Don’t assume every non-tender is a function of money," Alderson said.

Well then, what was it?

Turner thinks it might have been Barwis. Mike FUCKING Barwis.

https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/world-series-ex-met-justin-turner-reinvented-himself-with-dodgers-1.14603499

But Turner had a plan. He intended to spend the winter of 2013 revamping his swing with Doug Latta, a private hitting instructor in his native Southern California. Turner had committed to going when the Mets suggested the workouts with Barwis. “They wanted me to pay for workouts,” Turner said. “I wanted to hit with my guy.”

Sandy denies this. But his explanation sucks:

Alderson denied that Turner’s decision to hit in California rather than sweat it out in Michigan played into his departure. “First I’ve heard that explanation,” he said. “There was never a Turner issue with Barwis.” With David Wright at third and Daniel Murphy at second, Alderson said, “Justin simply didn’t have a position with us.”

That's bullshit. He was a perfect utility player. Cheap, versatile, and had the 6th highest OPS+ on the team. Not at all the type of player Sandy Alderson cuts.

On the other hand, I can see the Barwis situation making sense. Everyone knows Barwis is Jeff Wilpon's guy. I can definitely see a scenario where Jeff urges all Mets to use him. Some say yes, some veterans say no. You can't force them to do anything. But when a young kid like Turner says no, Jeff gets pissed. "Who does he think he is?", Jeff says disgustedly, "Get that piece of shit Turner off my team NOW!!!"

Yes, I'm saying this is all Jeff Wilpon's fault.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Here's a thread from 2013:

That Lazy No Good Justin Turner

It's not as readable as it should be. It looks like we're having server issues where the style sheet isn't being recognized. We do apologize for any inconvenience.

[MFS62]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: That Lazy No Good Justin Turner

Lefty Specialist doesn't get a cigar for his prediction, but he at least gets a cigarillo.
Wrong team, correct outcome.

Later

[Guest 86-Dreamer]

I just hope he speaks fondly of Met fans during his induction speech

[Ceetar]

Barwis or not, does seem to be an argument that he wasn't going to become what he has with the Mets/within their system. two seasons of sub-par BB%, increasing Ks. No real sign of improvement. Was still a pretty silly move not to keep him for at least another year, versatility wise (it wasn't like he was _bad_)

He also had bad defense numbers with the Mets that magically got better with the Dodgers.

He's also one of those guys that really benefited from the juiced ball.

It really just seems like they believed Turner couldn't provide value at SS (which is funny since they played Flores there not a year later) and was too blocked at the other positions to be worthwhile. I don't think it's an unreasonable gamble to suggest Duda, Wright, Davis, Herrera, Flores, Murphy could more than adequately cover the rest of the infield and would be at least as good.

Still should've kept him. but they chose others guys and he got lost in the roster crunch.

[Centerfield]

Here's a thread from 2013: That Lazy No Good Justin Turner It's not as readable as it should be. It looks like we're having server issues where the style sheet isn't being recognized. We do apologize for any inconvenience.

So the party line was that he was let go for lack of hustle. A trait that we, rabid fans of the team, did not see.

Seriously, this has all the makings of a Jeff Wilpon Meddle Classic.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: Barwis or not, does seem to be an argument that he wasn't going to become what he has with the Mets/within their system. two seasons of sub-par BB%, increasing Ks. No real sign of improvement. Was still a pretty silly move not to keep him for at least another year, versatility wise (it wasn't like he was _bad_) He also had bad defense numbers with the Mets that magically got better with the Dodgers. He's also one of those guys that really benefited from the juiced ball.

There is no way to know what he would have been had we kept him. But if you believe his story, that he revamped his swing that winter, there is no reason to believe we wouldn't have seen similar results. Plus some guys just blossom late. Jose Bautista, Nelson Cruz. Even Jacob deGrom.

The point is you don't just cut young, controllable players of value for no reason. Sure, most will not come back to haunt you, but unlike Murphy, this was an unforced error.

Ceetar wrote: It really just seems like they believed Turner couldn't provide value at SS (which is funny since they played Flores there not a year later) and was too blocked at the other positions to be worthwhile. I don't think it's an unreasonable gamble to suggest Duda, Wright, Davis, Herrera, Flores, Murphy could more than adequately cover the rest of the infield and would be at least as good. Still should've kept him. but they chose others guys and he got lost in the roster crunch.

There was no roster crunch. The 2014 Mets opened with Omar Quintanilla on their 25. You could have kept Turner along with all of those guys you mention.

There is no baseball reason to make this move. This was personal.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

I think I saw the lack of hustle, as well as the fattening and the not hitting much at all until later in the season when the race was mostly out of reach. On July 31, his OPS was at .615.

Doesn't mean I agreed with the move or that it was good. It clearly wasn't.

[Ceetar]

Omar Zero was garbage, yes, but the Mets had decided Turner couldn't play SS. the roster crunch was mostly 2B/3B. They had Flores and Herrera available too. But Turner had a .3 career fWAR and was 30 years old. He'd played bad defense, and had a subpar OBP. I agree that they should've kept him, cost-controlled and all that, but it's not hard to believe that there was no use for him on the Mets.

[Centerfield]

Ceets,

I don't know why you continue to make reference to a roster crunch. There was no roster crunch. When you have room on your roster for Omar Quintanilla, there is decidedly no crunch!

In 2014, Flores played more games at SS than any other position. Herrera had never played above single-A. His call up during the season straight from AA was somewhat of a surprise, but necessitated by the lack of depth at the infield positions.

You know who became the Mets utility guy in 2014? Eric Campbell. A guy who didn't play defense as well as Justin Turner. Campbell posted a .680 OPS that year. 16 points lower than Turner's as a Met. Campbell's OPS plummeted from that point on. Turner, well, he went the other way...

There is a reason people labeled this move as surprising, or a head scratcher. It's because it made no sense. And the lack of hustle? I would think you would bench a guy, talk to him, pull him from a game, do anything at least once before cutting him from the team.

This wasn't a baseball move. Someone decided to be a dickhead. And when you do things for dickhead reasons, karma will come back to bite you.

[ashie62]

Turner's success elsewhere is a fluke.

[Lefty Specialist]

I do remember that he did get a bit pudgy in 2013. That's probably why they wanted him to work with Barwis as much as anything. If he'd stayed he'd probably have torn something next spring from being too muscular.

Would have paid good money to see him hit Jeffy with a pie, though.

[Edgy MD]

According to Amazin Avenue, the Mets opening day infield in 2014 was, Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy, Omar Quintanilla, Josh Satin, Ruben Tejada, and David Wright.

If that's correct, and you accept that the Mets had lost faith in Turner as a shortstop (I know I had), then the guy they appear to have chosen over him was Josh Satin.

[Ceetar]

Omar doesn't factor into the roster crunch as Turner didn't play SS. or couldn't. or they felt he couldn't.

They believed in Flores. Hell, Campbell had a 149 wRC+ in Vegas, 3x the walkrate as Turner, and was younger.

Campbell ended up giving them in 2014 almost exactly what they got from Turner in 2013. There's plenty of reason to think that the Mets saw them as fairly interchangable.

And sure, Turner was better in 2014, but it was mostly a BABIP driven increase. He started driving the ball harder, but he was getting lucky too. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think some time within a different system working on different things helped him become what he is now (and a juiced ball, certainly)

I'm not saying that personal feelings didn't enter into it, but he was understandably a guy on the fringe of the roster. It's not like he was a 3 win player and Jeff was like 'I hate him, get him out of here' He hadn't, and wasn't, adding much value. He was completely expendable, and he was already 30.

[Centerfield]

Turner's success elsewhere is a fluke.

Of course it is. You can never expect something like that to happen. But it did happen. And the part that burns is that this should have been our fluke.

This is an unforced error. We didn't have to make a decision, like with Murphy and Walker. We didn't have to do anything. All we had to do, was not go out of our way to actively fuck up.

You don't cut players because they are chubby. I think the lack of hustle thing is a lie. There are all sorts of references to Turner being a Collins favorite.

Turner, 29, spent the past three seasons as a utility man, playing all four infield positions and recently learning left field. A favorite of Collins, he hit .280 with two home runs in 214 plate appearances this season and would have been due for a modest raise through arbitration.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/64296688//

Hard to picture fat, lazy non-hustling guy to be a manager's favorite.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: They believed in Flores. Hell, Campbell had a 149 wRC+ in Vegas, 3x the walkrate as Turner, and was younger. Campbell ended up giving them in 2014 almost exactly what they got from Turner in 2013. There's plenty of reason to think that the Mets saw them as fairly interchangable.

I think Turner was a better hitter and a better fielder than Campbell. But for the sake of argument, let's assume what you say is true. That the Mets thought they were interchangeable.

Fine. KEEP THEM BOTH. There is absolutely no reason to just discard one of them for no reason.

It's like being given two instant scratch off tickets. The likelihood of any of them being a winner is low. Looking at the two tickets, they look identical. In all likelihood, each ticket will give you about ten seconds of mild anticipation, followed by disappointment, then being tossed aside.

But that being the case, it is absolutely foolish to simply throw away one of those tickets and say "Well, those things never win."

If you do that, then you will be rightfully ridiculed when some guy picks it up and wins a million dollars.

Ceetar wrote: I'm not saying that personal feelings didn't enter into it, but he was understandably a guy on the fringe of the roster. It's not like he was a 3 win player and Jeff was like 'I hate him, get him out of here' He hadn't, and wasn't, adding much value. He was completely expendable, and he was already 30.

In five days, TJ Rivera will be 29 years old, the same age as Justin Turner at the time. He's likely a utility player. We have already have Wright, Cabrera, Cecchini, and Flores on the roster, and we might even bring back Reyes. We have tons of options for 2B and 3B. TJ Rivera is completely expendable. But there is absolutely no reason to expend him.

If we were to just cut ties with TJ Rivera now, it would be a foolish, unforced error.

[Edgy MD]

We're really confusing and conflating years here. This was the offseason going from 2013 to 2014. The guy who got his spot wasn't Campbell or Flores, but Josh Satin.

Turner, unlike Rivera, was out of options, so if you don't believe he can play shortstop, choosing was necessary.

[Centerfield]

According to Amazin Avenue, the Mets opening day infield in 2014 was, Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy, Omar Quintanilla, Josh Satin, Ruben Tejada, and David Wright. If that's correct, and you accept that the Mets had lost faith in Turner as a shortstop (I know I had), then the guy they appear to have chosen over him was Josh Satin.

Right. And I guarantee you there was never a discussion that went along the lines of:

"Shit, we can't keep an animal like Satin caged forever. We might have to make some tough choices here guys..."

[Edgy MD]

I dunno, but he sure hit circles around Turner in 2013.

[Centerfield]

There was no choice that had to be made. Josh Satin had options in 2014. There was absolutely no reason not to keep Turner and Satin.

When Satin sucked in 2014, he was optioned to LV, and Eric Campbell was called up.

There was absolutely no choice that needed to be made, and certainly not in December 2013 between Turner, Satin, Campbell, or anyone else. The right choice was to keep all of them.

[Ceetar]

Maybe they simply hoped Turner would renegotiate on a minor league deal like Hefner did, to give them more roster flexibility.

Hell, maybe he was a little lazy or whatever and it was only his release that make him take stock of himself and work hard enough to get as good as he did.

Or maybe they keep him and he's 4/28 through April and they release him then and the Dodgers pick him up and it's the same thing.