It looks like we're talking about Andrew McCutchen

[A Boy Named Seo]

I'd rather leave Gomez alone, trade Bruce, and then take a stab at a 1-year McCutcheon rental. I'm gunna go make some WATPs for us to chew upon.

[Zvon]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: I'd rather leave Gomez alone, trade Bruce, and then take a stab at a 1-year McCutcheon rental. I'm gunna go make some WATPs for us to chew upon.

^This.

I say Bruce should go, Grandy should stay. But if we bring McCutchen on board, that changes everything. The ripple effect could end up changing the teams long term plans but as long as Conforto is here at the end of the day I'll be okay with whatever (he can back all three OF positions). I'm a Lagares fan but he would be the weakest link and there's gotta be a team out there looking for a good glove in center.

[Zvon]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Jay Bruce -> Blue Jays for CF prospect Anthony Alford, + LHRP Aaron Loup Nimmo / Gsellman / TEBOW -> Pirates for one year of downtrodden Andrew McCutcheon. Sounds like the Nats are already moving on some McCutch deal but we can beat those bastards with the inclusion of TEBOW.

Matz/Lagares

[Benjamin Grimm]

I expect that the price for McCutchen would be rather steep.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette says:

The Pirates discussed a McCutchen trade with the Washington Nationals, the Texas Rangers and the Seattle Mariners, the sources said, and are looking primarily for prospects in return.

And also:

The Pirates’ biggest need this offseason is starting pitching. With a weak and pricey free agent market, their best avenue to acquire quality pitching is via trade.

Does Matz get it done? And is it something we'd be willing to do?

[A Boy Named Seo]

Zvon wrote: A Boy Named Seo wrote: Jay Bruce -> Blue Jays for CF prospect Anthony Alford, + LHRP Aaron Loup Nimmo / Gsellman / TEBOW -> Pirates for one year of downtrodden Andrew McCutcheon. Sounds like the Nats are already moving on some McCutch deal but we can beat those bastards with the inclusion of TEBOW. Matz/Lagares

That would do it, I bet. I still believe in Matz, though. Do we all want him gone now??

[nymr83]

When our pitching explodes again we'd sorely miss him. why trade for McCutchen at all? sign Fowler!

[Benjamin Grimm]

I like that idea better.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I no longer have a whole lot of faith in him, but I'd be reluctant to trade him.

[Zvon]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Does Matz get it done? And is it something we'd be willing to do?

Throw in Lags and I think it's possible. And it's not that I'm down on Matz (as I've said I'd prefer holding on to all arms, but....Cutch...) it's just that I'm higher on Gsellman.
For someone like Andrew I'm afraid we will have to give up one of the big 5.

[Zvon]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: A Boy Named Seo wrote: Jay Bruce -> Blue Jays for CF prospect Anthony Alford, + LHRP Aaron Loup Nimmo / Gsellman / TEBOW -> Pirates for one year of downtrodden Andrew McCutcheon. Sounds like the Nats are already moving on some McCutch deal but we can beat those bastards with the inclusion of TEBOW. Matz/Lagares That would do it, I bet. I still believe in Matz, though. Do we all want him gone now??

I really would rather not. But we don't get McCutchen w/o giving up something we covet, IMO, one of our starters. And as I said on the other thread it;s not that I'm down on Matz, I'm not, I'm just up on Gsellman. He came up in a pressure packed situation and he showed he can pitch here in NY.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Five years of control for Matz vs. one year of control for McCutchen. You have to figure that into the calculation.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I can't believe people aren't prepared to trade Matz for an MVP centerfielder

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

5 years for Matz = 1.5 years for normal people. It's about even

[nymr83]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I can't believe people aren't prepared to trade Matz for an MVP centerfielder

you mean an expensive player on a steep downward trajectory? he was NEGATIVE WAR player this past year (last 5 years: 7.0; 8.1; 6.3; 4.9; -0.7 on BRef) - i'm guessing he isnt that bad, but he is owed 14 mil each of the last 2 years and arguably already belongs in a corner spot. at that point, he's Jay Bruce.


Why would you trade Matz for that?

[A Boy Named Seo]

I think the 2nd year is an option, but still. He's not quite that guy anymore, which is why he's even available. I'd try to get him for my bulletproof offer of Nimmo (or Lagares)/Gsellman/TEBOW, but would walk away if it came to Matz.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Because Matz for all his potential has been hurt repeatedly, and to the extent we can deal from a position of strength we have pitching to trade and offense to gain. Plus he's marrying a weird country singer who I don't trust. He probably voted for Trump, him & Harvey.

I'm a lil ignorant of McC's glove these days but would be surprised if he's done already and cetrainly a better bet to have a good year than Bruce or Grandy and is one of the few players in the game capable of having a better season than Cespedes.

[nymr83]

I'm not trading Gsellman either. take Tebow and we'll take on the entire contract!

[Benjamin Grimm]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: 5 years for Matz = 1.5 years for normal people. It's about even

Good point.

[Frayed Knot]

There's a $14.5 million 2018 option on McCutcheon so, absent a further descent into hell by him, consider him to be under club control for two more seasons, not one, and adjust your WATPs accordingly.

Very strange year for him in 2016. Dropped 120+ OPS points off 2015 around 170 points off the average of his four year run (2012-2015) where he finished 3rd, 1st, 3rd, and 5th in MVP voting.
Fielding metrics had him as the worst OF in baseball by some measure or another which just seems too freakish for logic although there were reports out of Pittsburgh that he didn't take well to the radical shifting the Pirates dove headlong into recently which is at least partially what explains his poor 'range'.

He did hit better over the second half of the year and GEEZ he just turned 30 a few weeks ago so it's totally illogical to assume that he's done.

[Edgy MD]

Maybe at Jacob deGrom's press conference, he'll be able to be able to clue us in on what's up with McCutcheon.

[Zvon]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Five years of control for Matz vs. one year of control for McCutchen. You have to figure that into the calculation.

I agree that it's an all-out for 2017 (and risky) move. Also, I am not all-up on McCutchen's more recent seasons. I read that last year he needed a jump start about half way though. I think he still has plenty left in his tank and the change of scenery would be an overall jump start for him. Also keeps him away from the Nats (now in negotiations with Pittsburgh, I read earlier today).

Of course, if we could get it done for less, I'd approve. I consider Matz one of the core 5 arm wise. He's also a lefty. Moving him would be painful. I don't consider Gsellman one of the 5. But I feel confident he can fill the opening. But Matz being the only lefty...that might derail my thinking.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Does Pittsburgh do radical outfield shifting?

[Frayed Knot]

As mentioned in another thread (we now have dueling McCutcheon threads without either one being an actual McCutcheon thread) McCutcheon is, in effect, under control of whatever team winds up with him for Two more seasons, not one.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Both McCutchen discussions have been split from their original threads and combined into this one.

Let's talk about Andrew McCutchen!

[A Boy Named Seo]

If we don't trade for McCutchen, Guns N Roses might to have him fill in for Buckethead. I'm gonna go Google for some fGWAR stats now.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: If we don't trade for McCutchen, Guns N Roses might to have him fill in for Buckethead. I'm gonna go Google for some fGWAR stats now.

If we don't trade for this cat, and Washington does, we're gonna be up against it, bigly.

CMON SANDY MAKE THE FRIGGIN DEAL ALREADY.

[Zvon]

Two seasons and it's less painful to include Matz. Of course this is said with the hope that McCutchen returns to his old form for a few years.
There is only one Buckethead.

[Centerfield]

Stupid question here.

Why are the Bucs looking to trade McCutchen? I mean, his value is so low right now. Fairly reasonable contract. Why not see if he can bounce back a bit?

I guess the downside is he may kill the rest of his value if he tanks again, but we are thinking he can bounce back right?

[Benjamin Grimm]

I think that they've ruled out giving him a long-term contract, and they want to see if they can get anything back for him in a trade, rather than let him walk away through free agency.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I can't believe people aren't prepared to trade Matz for an MVP centerfielder you mean an expensive player on a steep downward trajectory? he was NEGATIVE WAR player this past year (last 5 years: 7.0; 8.1; 6.3; 4.9; -0.7 on BRef) - i'm guessing he isnt that bad, but he is owed 14 mil each of the last 2 years and arguably already belongs in a corner spot. at that point, he's Jay Bruce. Why would you trade Matz for that?

While I wouldn't know what McCutchen's future holds, I don't see a steep downward trajectory either. He had an off year in 2016. The four years before that, he finished in the top five in league MVP voting every single season -- including a number one finish in 2013. He was also an all-star the last five seasons before 2016.

Johnny Bench was the NL MVP in 1970 and in 1972. And in between -- 1971 -- he had the worst year of his prime. Go figure.