The Strawberry Statement

[batmagadanleadoff]

You wanna compare their WAR's for their entire Mets careers?

Strawberry's WAR was 36.4 in 3,903 AB's -- that's one WAR every 107.22 AB's
Wright -- 49.9 and 5,996 -- one WAR every 120.16 AB's.

Slight edge to Strawberry -- the better Mets hitter, pound for pound.

[Edgy MD]

I don't know why we should divide by the number of at-bats. Longevity counts.

Otherwise, retire Céspedes number now.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't know why we should divide by the number of at-bats. Longevity counts. Otherwise, retire Céspedes number now.

You're right. I guess Ed Kranepool was a way better Mets hitter than Cespedes because Krane accumulated a lot more of everything than Cespedes.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: d'Kong76 wrote: I'm gonna start a facebook page like that Hodge's nut has for Gil in the Hall for the Mets to retire Kranepool's #. Original Met, 18 years; what do they want, blood? That guy is a nut's nut. He went nuts on me and then I backed away slowly and quietly withdrew from the Facebook group, and he kept re-adding me unsolicited. He's so unstable and out there and un-self-aware about it, I almost kind of like him, but I tend to think he's hurting the Hodges case more than helping it.

After Yogi Berra died, guy went nuts on someone demanding proof to his statement that Yogi Berra was known to be a victim of Alzheimer's, and many in the baseball and Yankee community knew this.

The one problem is doing a little Google-fu comes up with an unfunny Onion wannabe for baseball article from 2003 correlating Berra's entire lifetime of quirky linguistics to the disease! Even sayings going back to the 1940s. The only "piece" linking Berra and Alzheimers. You'd think there'd be a little more if it was "well known within Berra's professional communities."

The guy still didn't back off despite being confronted with it, despite being told that it was pretty crappy to state something like that in a public forum with no approval from anyone, especially those whom kept a private personal profile in later years.

Anyway, on topic. It does seem that the article wants to keep hammering the "Mets done the 1986ers wrong" narrative going, of course the flip is that the Mets do get hammered for "relying on their past too much, and their past isn't that great when its only five league titles and two World Championships in over 55 years" so its kind of a double edged sword when it comes to media, and fan base, narratives.

Either the Mets should embrace their entire past (even the ones ownership tends to be embarrassed by), or they should stick with the present-future. The former probably drives the "Backman for manager" cause more so than anything about Backman's qualities as a skipper, as well as the kerfuffle with Piazza's Game Jersey from the First Game Back Since 9/11 game being sold to a third party and sold in an auction. Though I'd imagine the flashpoint of the most recent wave of this narrative started with the opening of the Robinson Rotunda, where it seemed more Dodger icons were presented in Citi Field than Met icons, to say nothing about Citi's behind home entrance invoking Ebbets in its design.

The latter tends to come from people that openly mock the idea that Ed Kranepool is considered a Met icon, and conversely laugh at the lack of bonafide superstars the Yankees have trotted out during their OTD celebrations in recent years.

I don't know, the Mets seem to do just enough with public and not-so-much public alumni stuff in recent years that I really don't care that we aren't the Reds/Cardinals/Yankees/Dodgers when it comes to this sort of remembering past glories. Plus as stated, there really isn't a whole lot there that needs to be celebrated.

FWIW, Strawberry and Gooden kind of were the reasons (according to Howie Rose a few times) the Mets HOF stalled out following Tommie Agee's induction in the early 2000s. Like the Mets weren't quite sure if they should induct them or not. Obviously with the Met Hall being re-constituted as a museum in Citi, it was finally time to let them in, warts and all.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Next time I'm at Citi Field I'll have to stop in the museum to take a look at the display of Dwight Gooden's warts.

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I don't know why we should divide by the number of at-bats. Longevity counts. Otherwise, retire Céspedes number now. You're right. I guess Ed Kranepool was a way better Mets hitter than Cespedes because Krane accumulated a lot more of everything than Cespedes.

Then we're good.

Please realize, in the midst of this sarcasm, that Céspedes has already surpassed Kranepool in WAR for the Mets, at least according to baseball-reference, so let's stay on topic.

[nymr83]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Comparing their first eight seasons is fair. Yes, Wright's rookie season was a partial one, but Straw missed about a quarter of his rookie season, and missed about a third of the '85 season --when Straw was on pace to have what would've been his best season ever. Even though Wright appeared in just 69 games in his debut season, overall, Wright still had 258 AB's more than Strawberry in their first eight Mets seasons -- 4,161 to 3,903. So that's 2 less WAR's for Wright, if you wanna use WAR, which you do, in 258 more AB's. That doesn't help your case, WAR-wise.

Not being on the team yet vs. getting hurt are two different things entirely. and staying on the field certainly matters, but the point is that they were roughly as good per-year and Wright played several more years - he is the best homegrown Mets hitter.

and i haven't even gotten into the off-field stuff - Wright is a model citizen, Straw got into fist fights with teammates and was on cocaine - and these things mater too when you are talking about who should be retired.

I'm not even sure that Strawberry is second on my list of homegrown hitters - taking not just the bat but position into account, I'd at least consider the Mets careers of Edgardo Alfonzo and Jose Reyes as being on par

[Ceetar]

*cough cough* John Olerud was a better Mets hitter than both of 'em (and Piazza) though he only had a few years worth of PA

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

#retiretheonfieldhelmet

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

After Yogi Berra died, guy went nuts on someone demanding proof to his statement that Yogi Berra was known to be a victim of Alzheimer's, and many in the baseball and Yankee community knew this.

Steve, explain how and why you are tapped into the "the Yankee community."



Just teasing you today.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

I see no dishonor in saluting Ed Kranepool. He's in the Mets Hall of Fame, right? That's an adequate -- and worthy -- tribute.

I was at Miller Park last month. The Brewers, who have no World Series titles to boast. still do a nice job honoring players. Aside from statues of Yount and Aaron (and Bud Selig and Bob Uecker), there was a Wall of Honor on the left field side, outside the stadium with many players saluted for long careers with the team. Sixto Leczcano is up there with Aaron and Molitor.

[Zvon]

soupcan wrote: I've got less of a problem with Strawberry than I do with Gooden but still, Straw can go suck an egg. Take 16 & 18 out of circulation? Why? Because the two of them made some All-Star teams while they were Mets? Rookies of the year? World Champions? Cy Young? How many ultimately mediocre players on every other team in the majors have similar accomplishments and don't have their numbers retired? Quite a fucking few I'm thinking. The only difference to me between those two is that Gooden's performance while he was with the Mets was affected by his drug use and Strawberry's wasn't. The Mets dodged a bullet when the Dodgers signed Straw. Unfortunately for the organization and their fans, they weren't so lucky with Doc. As to the revelation that Johnny Lunch just posted - I'm not nearly surprised. As Edgy stated, Dwight's looked pretty bad for a while now. Sad to say but I won't be surprised when in the next year or so we read about his ultimate demise. I wish that neither of those guys ever got involved with drugs and then played their whole career with the Mets. That didn't happen but you know what did? I invested a lot of my personal fandom and emotion in both of them. Almost 30 years later, I still harbor resentment towards Gooden, and Straw doesn't help his case by acting like the Mets owe him something more than EVERYTHING they've already given him.

Pretty much this^. Retire their numbers? No way.

Re: Gooden's demise- When I read that I winced & thought NOOOOO. But I noted Doc's gaunt appearance last season and I'm afraid that might be a real possibility.

It was never resentment w/me. It was HUGE disappointment. I had those two homegrown Mets pegged for the Hall Of Fame. There was anger early in regards to their careers being derailed (of their drug problems I just felt pity). But that has all dissipated.

[Edgy MD]

That's a pretty thoughtful post by Steve I think.

I remember the old MoFo, where the folks most abusive to the Mets poorer players were the ones most nostalgic for the poorer players of days gone by (*cough* Doug Flynn *cough*). Folks love to demand it both ways.

To review, the Mets have hired, in one capacity or another, Gary Carter, Keith Hernandez, Wally Backman, Tim Teufel, Mookie Wilson, Ron Darling, Lee Mazzilli, Howard Johnson, Randy Niemann, John Gibbons, and Bob Ojeda. And that's just the guys who've gotten more-or-less full-time gigs. Darryl Strawberry, empty though his relationship might be, has been retained on more than one occasion as a spring training instructor.

Darryl can say what he wants, and I'm sure it's partly fans egging him into their narrative, partly the interviewer egging him into a statement that's controversial enough to make the papers, partly just him just being in a mood, and partly, you know, probably kind of true. (Who wouldn't be surprised if Jeff kept Darryl Strawberry at arm's length?)

He can say what he wants but in the end, it's just another guy filling time on the radio. Stay healthy and sober, Darryl.

[nymr83]

Ceetar wrote: *cough cough* John Olerud was a better Mets hitter than both of 'em (and Piazza) though he only had a few years worth of PA

the best. but i thought we were discussing the best "homegrown" player

[Ceetar]

Nymr83 wrote: Ceetar wrote: *cough cough* John Olerud was a better Mets hitter than both of 'em (and Piazza) though he only had a few years worth of PA the best. but i thought we were discussing the best "homegrown" player

Honestly homegrown doesn't mean that much to me. Carlos Beltran is one of my favorite players. Syndergaard of the current ilk maybe. In the murky waters of what's worthy of Mets HoF or number retirement having spent time in the Mets minor leagues doesn't really factor in for me.

It's fun to poke fun at the Yankees for over-retiring guys, but when you're in the entertainment business I don't really think you can over-celebrate.

[stevejrogers]

soupcan wrote: How many ultimately mediocre players on every other team in the majors have similar accomplishments and don't have their numbers retired? Quite a fucking few I'm thinking.

Non HOFers, or questionable by the team that honored them retired numbers as off recently this year:

Braves
Dale Murphy #3
Larry Jones #10 (well he will be a HOFer)

Brewers
Hank Aaron #44 (More of a Milwaukee honor, ala what #24 would be as a Met)
Rollie Fingers #34 (Bit of a Padres Garvey oddball. Like they were convinced the A's would never do Fingers the honor, so they honored a guy that helped bring them an AL title.)

Cardinals
Ken Boyer #14 (Tribute to an ailing former MVP)
August Busch #85 (Owner)

Diamondbacks
Luis Gonzalez #20 (For Yankee haters the world over, probably their greatest non HOF player)

Dodgers
Jim Gilliam #19 (In Memorial tribute)

Marlins
Carl Barger #5 (Since put back in circulation after being retired for first VP who died before team first started player, big DiMaggio fan)

Mets
Gil Hodges #14 (In Memorial Tribute)

Nationals
Technically none, but the Expos had #10 and #30 officially retired for Rusty Staub and Tim Raines respectively, and #83 for owner Charles Bronfman

Padres
Steve Garvey #6 (odd tribute even if he had an ax to grind against the Dodger organization at the time of his number retirement in 1988 (IDK if this is true, just fishing for a reason)
Randy Jones #35 (Padres' Seaver but more like a Ron Guidry type of middling career, and without Gator's '78)
Trevor Hoffman #51 (Probably will be in Cooperstown someday)

Pirates
Billy Meyer #1 (This one has actually stumped baseball historians as to what the reasoning was)
Danny Murtaugh #40 (In Memorial, also skipper to two World Champions)

Reds
Fred Hutchinson #1 (In Memorial)
Ted Kluszewski #18 (Apparently was retired in the 1960s, unretired, then put back on the wall when they started retiring numbers again)
Dave Concepcion #13 (Captain of BRM era Reds, quality SS for many years)
Pete Rose #14 (Finally retired...let's not get into this debate!)

Rockies
Todd Helton #17 (Very much like the Diamondbacks and Gonzalez, honoring a great with the franchise, though probably not quite a baseball HOFer)

Angels
Gene Autry #26 (Owner)
Jimmie Reese #50 (long time coach and Zimmer like baseball ambassador of sorts in later years)
Jim Fregosi #11 (First Angel All Star)

Astros
Jim Umbricht #32 (In Memorial)
Don Wilson #40 (In Memorial)
Larry Dierker #49 (Popular pitcher, announcer, etc)
Jose Cruz #25 (Best offensive player pre-Bagwell)
Mike Scott #33 (Did have some good years, if tainted)
Jimmy Wynn #24 (Another offensive star in the dreadful era of franchise)
Jeff Bagwell #5 (Still awaiting Cooperstown honors)

Indians
Mel Harder #18 (Long time pitcher and coach)
Fans #455 (Yup, they honored Jacobs Field's consecutive sellout streak)

Rangers
Johnny Oates #26 (Honoring the ailing skipper of their first postseason seasons)

Rays
Wade Boggs #12 (Tampa native, and pretty much a signal that it could have been true that he had it in his contract to go into Cooperstown as a Ray)
Don Zimmer #66 (Like Reese, honoring a baseball lifer/ambassador, though this one was a posthumous retirement)

Red Sox
Johnny Pesky #6 (Break from usual Red Sox number retirement system to honor long time Sox employee and the man whom the RF Foul Pole is named for.

Royals
Dick Howser #10 (In Memorial Tribute)
Frank White #20 (Honoring one one of the bigger names not named Brett on those 1970s-1980s teams)

Tigers
Willie Horton #23 (Grew up in the area, and was a fan favorite for a lot of years)

Twins
Tony Oliva #6 (Popular player of the 1960s)
Kent Hrbek #14 (Popular player of the 1980s and 1990s)
Tom Kelly #10 (Skipper of only two Minnesota World Champs)

White Sox
Minnie Minoso #9 (Long time player and coach, as well as a pioneer)
Billy Pierce #19 (Star hurler for the 1959 AL Champs)
Harold Baines #3 (Retired while Baines was still active! Good hitter with the ChiSox of the 1980s)
Paul Konerko #14 (Put in mothballs last year, very much honoring best productive player not named Big Hurt for the Sox in the last 20 some years)

Yankees
Thurman Munson #15 (In Memorial to The Captain's tragic demise)
Elston Howard #32 (In Memorial to long time player, coach and pioneer with the team)
Roger Maris #9 (Honoring an ailing former MVP and a fence mending gesture)
Billy Martin #1 (Long time fan favorite player and skipper, but probably leverage to get him back for another managerial tenure)
Don Mattingly #23 (Wright supporters will look at this as reason enough to retire #5 in his honor, still a deserving enough tribute if you lower the "HOF or Bust" standard)
Ron Guidry #49 (Bit of an odd honor, certainly as big of a Yankee pitcher as anyone not in the Hall, but a loyal Yankee employee probably put his number into official mothballs)
Mariano Rivera #42 (Bruce Sutter in 2006 with the Cardinals beat him for the first non Robinson #42 retirement, but he should join Sutter in Cooperstown)
Bernie Williams #51 (Things got sillier than ever for the Yankees last year, granted Williams had a great Yankee career, Mattingly-esque even, but the Yankee number retirement jumped the shark years ago, and is now just repeating itself)
Jorge Posada #20 (I guess figuring Munson and Howard are not in the Hall of Fame, the Yankees are retiring the numbers of everyone who deserves to be on their all-time great backstop list)
Andy Pettitte #46 (See what I wrote for Williams, a cut below Guidry probably in team history, but why wasn't a Monument Park Plaque a sufficient honor)

Next category, numbers retired as seemingly more of a "get with it Cooperstown" message before the player was "finally" inducted. Essentially retiring a player that did not turn out to be a first ballot guy (i.e. Tom Seaver getting his number retired in 1988), or in the same year of their HOF induction (i.e. if the Mets retired #31 back in June).

Braves
Phil Niekro #35 Retired after left the Braves organization, inducted in his 5th year on ballot

Cubs
Ron Santo #10 Retired in 2003, Santo was honored by the Veterans Committee in 2012

Expos
Like Niekro, I kind of have to count it, if I'm being OCD about this
Gary Carter #8 Retired 1993, inducted into the Hall 2003, 6th year on ballot
Andre Dawson #10 Retired 1997, inducted into the Hall 2010, 9th year on ballot

Phillies
Richie Ashburn #1 Number retired in 1979, inducted by the Vet Committee in 1995

Pirates
Bill Mazeroski #9 Retired in 1987, inducted by the Vets in 2001, pretty much the reason for the shakeup that resulted in the rotation we have today.

Astros
Craig Biggio #7 Retired in 2008, inducted last year on his third try.

Indians
Larry Doby #14 Retired in 1994, inducted by the Vets in 1998

Twins
Harmon Killebrew #3 Again, a bit OCD, but retired in 1975, made the Hall in 1984, his 4th try

White Sox
Nellie Fox #2 Retired in 1976, entered the Hall via the Vets in 1997
Carlton Fisk #72 Retired in 1997 Inducted in 2000, second year on ballot

Yankees
Phil Rizzuto #10 Clearly a shot across Cooperstown's bow by GMSIII, retired famously in 1985 when a certain ex-Met defeated the Yankees for his 300th win, and inducted into Cooperstown by the Vets in 1994

Also put Hoffman, Bagwell, Gonzalez, Concepcion, Helton, Pesky, Oliva, Kelly, Minoso, Konerko, Martin, Mattingly, Williams, Posada and Pettitte in this category, again if you want to be OCD, but probably were meant as many fans think such an honor for Strawberry, Hernandez, et al would be.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: It's fun to poke fun at the Yankees for over-retiring guys, but when you're in the entertainment business I don't really think you can over-celebrate.

I would tend to disagree. Asking your neighbors to join you in re-celebrating your baby's birth every month will get diminishing attendance and increasingly indiscreet eye rolls, and eventually devalue birthdays and other, realer, more compelling milestones.

I mean, you're also in the legacy business, trying to sustain an ongoing relationship with your fans. Let's keep it real.

The Mets, by the way have surpassed the Yankees in ratings.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Good work, Rogers.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, Rogers is winning this thread, but he slowed down at the end there. Is Rizzutto the only questionable retirement by the Yankees? Not Roger Maris/9? Not Guidry/49?

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: It's fun to poke fun at the Yankees for over-retiring guys, but when you're in the entertainment business I don't really think you can over-celebrate. I would tend to disagree. Asking your neighbors to join you in re-celebrating your baby's birth every month will get diminishing attendance and increasingly indiscreet eye rolls, and eventually devalue birthdays and other, realer, more compelling milestones. I mean, you're also in the legacy business, trying to sustain an ongoing relationship with your fans. Let's keep it real. The Mets, by the way have surpassed the Yankees in ratings.

Believe it or not, but MFYLs agree with your assessment. As I said with some of the lack luster names they've been trotting out in recent years in lieu of having bigger names at OTD, but still trying to field two "complete" teams of former Yankees to do their annual exhibition three innings.

[Guest cooby]

Astros seem to have gone a bit overboard

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, Rogers is winning this thread, but he slowed down at the end there. Is Rizzutto the only questionable retirement by the Yankees? Not Roger Maris/9? Not Guidry/49?

*chuckle* Go back up a section! Plenty of WTF selections, Rizzuto is the only one of the HOFers.

[Edgy MD]

Oh, oh yeah.

Good job, Steve!

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: It's fun to poke fun at the Yankees for over-retiring guys, but when you're in the entertainment business I don't really think you can over-celebrate. I would tend to disagree. Asking your neighbors to join you in re-celebrating your baby's birth every month will get diminishing attendance and increasingly indiscreet eye rolls, and eventually devalue birthdays and other, realer, more compelling milestones. I mean, you're also in the legacy business, trying to sustain an ongoing relationship with your fans. Let's keep it real. The Mets, by the way have surpassed the Yankees in ratings.

well, you're talking to the guy that posts 101 weeks! photos of his kid to Facebook, so..

parents aren't entertainers though.

It doesn't have to be retired numbers, but that's what the Yankees do. And then they basically 'claim' these guys and they represent the brand for them. The Mets absolutely over-celebrate 1986. It can be wearying to some, but most people enjoy it. But hell, broaden the scope. Nobody's gonna be all 'stupid Mets' if they decided to celebrate literally any of the names we've mentioned. And even if they do, so what? People will come out. Call 'em 'great Mets' cause in a way everyone is a great Met (Except Tom Glavine) and part of the reason we love this team. None of it _means_ anything anyway. I'd rather snicker about over-celebrating guys than endless debates about shafting Keith Hernandez or whoever.

Most of these things are just a day at the park anyway. And it's baseball, entertainment, and marketing. They promote things like Drawstring Bag night! so why not a 'Roger Cedeno night"? or like, in 2006 when Beltran was approaching Hundley's record for franchise HR in a season, have Todd out for a night. show HR highlights, give away 1996 signed gear.

Get Edgardo Alfonzo out here again to talk about his 6/6 with Wilmer. Have 'em both sign pictures before the game in the rotunda. If they're both here next year and the Mets are home, name June 6th Edgardo Alfonzo day and get silly with it.

[soupcan]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: How many ultimately mediocre players on every other team in the majors have similar accomplishments and don't have their numbers retired? Quite a fucking few I'm thinking. batmagadanleadoff wrote: I disagree with this many ways over. First of all, every ML'er is, at best, mediocre at the end of their careers. Even Willie Mays. Otherwise, they'd still be playing. Mike Piazza would still be backstopping for the Mets, catching Tom Seaver's 96 MPH fastballs. So to characterize Strawberry based on his end of career mediocrity, to imply that Straw was a mediocrity is wholly unfair to Straw and a distortion.

But I'm not going to retire a number based on a few good years either. Do the Mets want to be the Yankees who will soon start having to use the Greek alphabet for their players because they've retired every single number for every single player who had a few good years for them?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Straw was a superstar and, I think, an underrated superstar, playing in an era when having to hit half your games in Shea Stadium was still murder on a batter's stats. I'll tell you something ... I secretly chafe a little bit every time I have to read that David Wright is the Mets best home grown hitter because I don't really believe it. Wright isn't the hitter that Straw was, and in fact, if you compare Wright's first eight years to Straw's first and only eight Mets seasons, (they were both 21 in their debut seasons, btw, making for a convenient comparison) Straw comes out on top overall, even though Wright had the best singular season. If Wright is the better Mets hitter than Straw, it's only because Wright outlasted Straw as a Met and took many more PA's, which enabled Wright to pass Straw in the career totals categories.

For me its not about whether Straw was this or that or better than this guy or that guy. I like what the Red Sox do. I may be mistaken but I believe they have a system for retiring numbers. A player must be in the Hall of Fame and had to have played at least 10 years for them. THAT's a guy whose number should be retired.

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Also, I don't think it'd be unprecedented if a player like Straw were to have his number retired. He's certainly more deserving of that honor, by like orders of magnitude, than say Gary Carter, who seems to have the most support among Mets fans for that kind of treatment. Lesser players than Straw have had their numbers retired. Not that that means anything, because we're now delving into a discussion in which rules and standards don't really apply and ownership can retire whatever numbers they feel like retiring.

You're right, it wouldnt be unprecedented but again do the Mets want to be the Padres who retired Randy Jones and Steve Garvey? The freaking Dodgers haven't even retired Garvey's #6. I'd like a retired number in Queens to be a real honor. Right now I think it is. Casey Stengel, Gil Hodges, Tom Seaver and Piazza. 3 Hall of Famers and one guy who's value to the team is without question.

[soupcan]

Edgy MD wrote: I remember the old MoFo, where the folks most abusive to the Mets poorer players were the ones most nostalgic for the poorer players of days gone by (*cough* Doug Flynn *cough*). Folks love to demand it both ways.

You coughing at me pal?

I was like 11-12 when Flynn was a Met. I was a good glove no-hit infielder just like him so I identified. With Straw & Doc I was in my 20's and looking for more. They both raised my expectations and when I went all in and they didn't deliver due to their own issues, I took it personally.

[Edgy MD]

Absolutely not.

I LOVED Doug Flynn. I'm referring most directly to the MoFo poster "Doug Flynn," who was as affectionate as you and myself toward Torre-era Mets, but would be the first to viciously rip contemporary reserve infielders like Melvin Mora and Joe McEwing to Norfolk and back.

He probably coined the name "Bore-DICK."

[Benjamin Grimm]

I like what the Red Sox do. I may be mistaken but I believe they have a system for retiring numbers. A player must be in the Hall of Fame and had to have played at least 10 years for them. THAT's a guy whose number should be retired.

That is a pretty good rule of thumb, but it might be a little too strict for my taste, which is stricter than most. But I think the Mets should eventually retire 5 for David Wright, and he's very unlikely to ever meet that criteria.

[Ceetar]

A think a good rule of thumb is to walk around Citi Field and ask say 1000 people who's #17? and if you get say 75% Keith Hernandez, then retire it because it's pretty clear the fans have a mental association of the number to the player even this many years later. Give it a grace period. in 2025 ask about #5. You might get a bunch of John Oleruds or Davey Johnsons but mostly you're going to get Wright. The Mets are old enough now that a lot of people have worn all the main numbers except for the fake-retired ones.

I think it's usually pretty clear when a number clearly is a synonym for that player. The whole concept behind retiring it is that it feels like it belongs to someone else. But the Mets should just set out a rule and decide what exactly it is that retiring a number means to the organization. As we've pointed out a bunch, it's silly to fake-retire numbers by not handing them out. It seems pretty clear the Mets have two classes of retired numbers. So hell, why not put the 8 and the 24 on the wall? You could even invert the colors and have more orange and just make those 'honored numbers' that are reused but represent Carter or Mays time with the Mets. You can't really go wrong with extra celebration.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I like what the Red Sox do. I may be mistaken but I believe they have a system for retiring numbers. A player must be in the Hall of Fame and had to have played at least 10 years for them. THAT's a guy whose number should be retired. That is a pretty good rule of thumb, but it might be a little too strict for my taste, which is stricter than most. But I think the Mets should eventually retire 5 for David Wright, and he's very unlikely to ever meet that criteria.

Yeah, I like some flexibility in there. You don't want a situation where you have a Hall of Famer who played nine years and you have to say no, or a guy who falls just short but is a team legend, which Wright is trending toward.

I like retiring numbers. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing 8 on the wall and I wouldn't grumble if they had put 24 on there, too. The circle with "Shea" on there seems awkward to me. There might have been other ways to honor Mr. Shea. There's a good candidate for a statue! Personally, I think the trailblazing Mrs. Payson deserves a tribute of some kind, too.

But I also worry about "honors inflation." Nancy Seaver's comments about the statues a while ago points to a line of thinking where retiring the number isn't enough, now you have to build a statue, too, or people are deemed slighted. The league-wide Jackie Robinson number retirement opened the door for that type of thing, too. You know there's an Ian O'Connor column just waiting for him to hit "send" on where he calls for a league-wide retirement of No. 2 to salute Jeter.

I think we're seeing this at a national level in some ways, too. We lower the flags to as a memorial display. Now that we've started to see the White House lighted in different colors -- the rainbow for the marriage decision, purple for Prince -- there are groups demanding that it be lighted blue to honor the fallen police officers. Once you take a step, it's a step that will be expected -- and leaves the door open for criticism if you don't take it.