Jose Jose No Jose!

[Lefty Specialist]

cooby wrote: Please reread page one everyone

Yeah, it's good to get some perspective.

[Guest cooby]

I don't think I could ever feel the same about him.

[Frayed Knot]

Most people think about abandoning the pool to go to the Jersey Shore for summer solstice.
Here at Crane Central, Jersey Shore suddenly shows up at the 'Pool on the summer solstice.



Like Gary was saying last night, not really sure what kind of role Jose plays if they sign him or how good he'll even be when they use him however they wind up using him.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

It seems like the kind of things that teams that are out of it do to put some fannies in the seats.

[Ceetar]

I think Reyes should play again, I don't think he should be barred from the game. He's definitely better than some of the guys on the roster, positional adjustments aside. but.. he's not good enough to override the baggage in my eyes. I generally don't think teams should consider off-field/off-season stuff very highly, but it's too much here. It's too much for him to basically succeed off it. (he'd be wallowing away on the Rockies otherwise, not possibly joining a contender) It's too much given Wilpon's history.

But more so, i think it might be too important off the field. If he comes back, he'll get more cheers than when he came back as a Marlin. The incident will be forgotten. People who point out he's still an abuser will be mostly ignored because he hit that home run to win that game. He served his time, within his job, but it's gotta be more than that. If he were to come back I want him volunteering in a domestic violence cause, or escorting women to Planned Parenthood, or something _actually_ redemptive.

I mean, look at Aroldis Chapman. Violently shot up his garage in anger at his wife/girlfriend and I doubt anyone's harassing him about it or booing him at Yankee Stadium. Basically forgotten?

[seawolf17]

Ceetar wrote: I think Reyes should play again, I don't think he should be barred from the game. He's definitely better than some of the guys on the roster, positional adjustments aside. but.. he's not good enough to override the baggage in my eyes. I generally don't think teams should consider off-field/off-season stuff very highly, but it's too much here. It's too much for him to basically succeed off it. (he'd be wallowing away on the Rockies otherwise, not possibly joining a contender) It's too much given Wilpon's history. But more so, i think it might be too important off the field. If he comes back, he'll get more cheers than when he came back as a Marlin. The incident will be forgotten. People who point out he's still an abuser will be mostly ignored because he hit that home run to win that game. He served his time, within his job, but it's gotta be more than that. If he were to come back I want him volunteering in a domestic violence cause, or escorting women to Planned Parenthood, or something _actually_ redemptive. I mean, look at Aroldis Chapman. Violently shot up his garage in anger at his wife/girlfriend and I doubt anyone's harassing him about it or booing him at Yankee Stadium. Basically forgotten?

This is a really good point. We -- fans in general, if not us specifically -- tend to have short memories, especially about off-field stuff. But it's important that we don't. It's what Maggie Wiggin tweeted yesterday: "A mistake is locking your keys in the car or spilling coffee. Putting another human being in the hospital is a choice." If we're ever going to change the culture, then we need to remember these things.

And from a baseball standpoint, I really don't know. He's been mediocre the past few years. Is it worth taking a flyer on a rejuvenated, excited Jose Reyes? Maybe, but like Ceetar said, we need to bring the baggage with it and make sure we take care of it in the open.

[Lefty Specialist]

Taking the temperature of GKR last night, I got the feeling that Ron was in favor, Keith against and Gary was in the middle.

Ron's point was that this is the only place Jose can succeed. He'd built up enough good will here previously that it would mitigate the personal stuff. Anywhere else, it would be 'wife-beater Jose Reyes' without that reservoir of past performance to draw on.

Not to be construed as an endorsement. I'd still prefer Dilson.

[Edgy MD]

I understand that argument. But it's an argument about what's best for Reyes, and not what's best for the Mets, to say nothing about what's best for his wife/society/women/etc.

It would do Reyes well to take the initiative and make gestures of public contrition (hopefully sincere ones) before having them mandated as part of any new relationship with an organization.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

I mean, look at Aroldis Chapman. Violently shot up his garage in anger at his wife/girlfriend and I doubt anyone's harassing him about it or booing him at Yankee Stadium. Basically forgotten?

I'm going to ask kind of a tough question: Does our level of forgiveness or willingness to forget correspond with the player's ability? If this is Jose circa 2007, would we be worried about baggage and demand visits to domestic violence shelters? It's easy to say that it's an issue for a guy who is passed his prime. But Chapman still throws 100 mph.

I can't think of a time where the Mets had a prime-time guy with these kind of issues and how fans responded. K-Rod, maybe, but he was kind of sucking when things went bad.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

And, I'll get in trouble here again, but has there been an effort to deal with the root causes of what happened with Reyes and is his wife? Was there drinking involved? Anger issues? Seems like if we care about the person we want to see that they get the help they need, not just show that they are properly apologetic.

[Edgy MD]

I don't think we know. Part of the situation in such cases is often that a deal is made and details don't get aired. In this case, the wife refused to cooperate with prosecutors, and charges were dropped. There are some things we'll never know.

I'm going to ask kind of a tough question: Does our level of forgiveness or willingness to forget correspond with the player's ability? If this is Jose circa 2007, would we be worried about baggage and demand visits to domestic violence shelters? It's easy to say that it's an issue for a guy who is passed his prime. But Chapman still throws 100 mph. I can't think of a time where the Mets had a prime-time guy with these kind of issues and how fans responded. K-Rod, maybe, but he was kind of sucking when things went bad.

Carl Everett, arrested for child abuse based (if I recall correctly) on injuries observed at a Shea Stadium day care center. I believe the bruises were eventually attributed to his wife, removing some of the how-can-you-root-for-this-guy? moral quandary. He was in his pre-prime at this point. Then there are the early nineties incidents against the media and fans by several players — bleach-spraying, firecrackers, golf clubs, trips to the Bronx.

But such cases involve men already under contract. You own them and own the sins and you work with them as they come as best as you can. This is a different case of buying in after the sin is already on the ledger, and is somewhat analogous to signing Marlon Byrd or Bartolo Colón, whose sins were neither violent nor interpersonal, but similarly put the team in an uphill position from the get-go, as far as accepting and dealing with a player who needs redeeming.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Part of the deal with MLB is that Jose (and other similar offenders) have to go through some kind of counseling program so yes, it's being addressed.

And yes, a player who plays well is more likely to be forgiven than one who isn't. Nice guys who play poorly become despised so bad guys who play poorly will certainly face a great deal of heat from the fans.

You mentioned Francisco Rodriguez. I guess he's the closest thing in Mets history to Jose Reyes' current situation, but Jose has much more capital with Mets fans than Frankie ever did. Other Mets who "did bad" (but with quite different circumstances) include Cleon Jones (sex with a white woman!), Keith Hernandez (cocaine), and Lenny Randle (punched out his manager just prior to becoming a Met).

[Edgy MD]

I have no evidence, but I kind of suspect Matt Harvey has had sex with white women. Just a hunch.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Well, if that's ever confirmed he should be forced into a public apology and then released.

[seawolf17]

Edgy MD wrote: I have no evidence, but I kind of suspect Matt Harvey has had sex with white women. Just a hunch.

More than one at a time, apparently.

[Lefty Specialist]

Edgy MD wrote: I have no evidence, but I kind of suspect Matt Harvey has had sex with white women. Just a hunch.

Was in in a van in Spring training? With M. Donald Grant knocking on the window?

[soupcan]

Edgy MD wrote: In this case, the wife refused to cooperate with prosecutors, and charges were dropped. There are some things we'll never know.

Guilty until proven innocent?

[Ceetar]

soupcan wrote: Edgy MD wrote: In this case, the wife refused to cooperate with prosecutors, and charges were dropped. There are some things we'll never know. Guilty until proven innocent?

well, he admitted to it no? No one's denying it happened, whether or not it's actionable legally.

[soupcan]

Did he admit it? Wouldn't that then be evidence enough to prosecute? Why would charges be dropped if he confessed?

[Ceetar]

soupcan wrote: Did he admit it? Wouldn't that then be evidence enough to prosecute? Why would charges be dropped if he confessed?

I can't find a quote from him, but regardless, she told cops he pulled her off the bed and slammed her into the glass door and she went to the hospital with injuries consistent with that. He didn't offer any other explanation. The trial didn't happen because she didn't want it to, but it doesn't change what he did.

[soupcan]

i'm not defending the guy and I'll admit that the system may be flawed, but no charges were filed. In the eyes of Johnny Law that makes him an alledged wife beater as opposed to a charged and/or convicted one.

As I said - guilty until proven innocent.

DISCLAIMER: I LOVE Jose and would welcome him back to Queens.

[Ceetar]

I require a lower burden of proof than the legal system.

Barry Bonds allegedly took steroids.

[soupcan]

I'd just like to know the wife's reasons for not pressing charges is all.

Could be that it was a fight that got blown out of proportion. Could be that she was afraid of Jose's wrath if she did file. Could be that she was concerned about lost income. Could be that he threatened to kill her family.

Without knowing, we don't know.

[Edgy MD]

But presumably, any team that that signs him would try to suss out both sides of the story, even if it's never shared with the public.

[Ceetar]

soupcan wrote: I'd just like to know the wife's reasons for not pressing charges is all. Could be that it was a fight that got blown out of proportion. Could be that she was afraid of Jose's wrath if she did file. Could be that she was concerned about lost income. Could be that he threatened to kill her family. Without knowing, we don't know.

I don't see anyway that it suggests he didn't shove her into a glass door and injure her. And it's not like they're remotely equal in stature. He's a ripped professional athlete, it doesn't matter if it was blown out of proportion, he still intentionally attacked her.

Edgy MD wrote: But presumably, any team that that signs him would try to suss out both sides of the story.

There's no way a team is going to start badgering his wife to tell her side of the story. You're not going to bring her in and interview her alone before you decide, and you can't do it with anyone else present or it's tainted. The NFL did that with Ray Rice, and it's beyond stupid.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I agree. I think it's more accurate to say that any team that signs him has to pretty much assume (as we all have) that he did attack his wife, and the team will have to decide if that's something they can live with, if whatever Jose can provide on the field outweighs the off-the-field negatives that he'll carry for life.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: But presumably, any team that that signs him would try to suss out both sides of the story. There's no way a team is going to start badgering his wife to tell her side of the story. You're not going to bring her in and interview her alone before you decide, and you can't do it with anyone else present or it's tainted. The NFL did that with Ray Rice, and it's beyond stupid.

Well, MLB apparently conducted an investigation, so insinuate that I'm "beyond stupid" all you want, but somewhere, accounts are on file, and more details are available than you or I have.

[Ceetar]

yes, MLB conducted an investigation as part of their domestic abuse policy and acted upon it. We're past that now.

And I didn't say you were stupid, I said interviewing domestic violence victims in front of the abuser about the abuser is stupid.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: yes, MLB conducted an investigation as part of their domestic abuse policy and acted upon it. We're past that now.

How exhausting. The report of that investigation, which you can be as "past" as you want, is to my thinking, part of what the Mets will review.

Ceetar wrote: And I didn't say you were stupid, I said interviewing domestic violence victims in front of the abuser about the abuser is stupid.

How doubly exhausting. Let's please try and stay on point. No, you didn't. I didn't say you did. I said you insinuated it, which you did.

I also didn't suggest the Mets would or wouldn't interview domestic violence victims in front of the abuser about the abuser. At all. I said they would try and suss out both sides of the story, and I imagine reviewing the report from the investigation would probably go much of the way toward accomplishing this.

[soupcan]

Ceetar wrote: I don't see anyway that it suggests he didn't shove her into a glass door and injure her. And it's not like they're remotely equal in stature. He's a ripped professional athlete, it doesn't matter if it was blown out of proportion, he still intentionally attacked her.

'Suggests'? Yeah, you're probably right. But without charges being filed and having his wife's testimony, you don't really know what happened. You don't know what their relationship is like. There are quite a few unkowns here. Could be Jose didn't fight the MLB suspension to protect her. You don't know.

Again - I don't want to come off as if I'm defending Jose. I'm just trying to sort of play devil's advocate here and point out just how much is unknown.