General Mets Miscellaneous Questions 2014

[stevejrogers]

Just thought there'd be a nice catch all for obscure questions and such.

For instance, August 2nd, 1972, the Mets are losing an extra inning game in St. Louis the same day their skipper, oddly enough from St. Louis, Yogi Berra is being inducted into Cooperstown.

So, who was the Met skipper that day? Bringing Pignatano in from the bullpen?

[Edgy MD]

This is something I'd like to see added to the official record --- wins and losses by substitute managers, and coach-managers who took over after an ejection.

I bet Joe Altobelli earned a lot of otherwise uncredited victories and saves after Earl Weaver ejections. Who has been the designated fill-in for Bobby Cox all those years?

[stevejrogers]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/40th-anniversary-13th-inning-inside-the-park-walk-off-home-run/

On to the bottom of the ninth. There�s only one thing worth noting in this frame. The Mets began the inning with relief pitcher Tug McGraw taking the place of Tom Seaver. This makes it that much odder that Mets manager Yogi Berra would let Seaver bat just a few minutes earlier. Well, McGraw shut down the Cardinals and extra innings beckoned.

*snicker* Well, it would be odd considering he was in upstate New York that day, and probably wouldn't have shown up to St. Louis for that night's game!

[Zvon]

In 1967 the UMDB has Johnny Murphy listed as a Met coach (as well as vice pres of the team). Did Murphy ever really suit up and coach on the field? What is the story behind him being listed as a coach? Are there pictures of him in uniform?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Murphy was said to have taken the field as a coach following Westrum's late-season resignation but I've never seen a photo of him in uniform and don't know his number.

It's become common more recently to have staff in addition to players up when rosters expand in September. I am less inclined to consider them to be actual team staff even though they get uniforms and stuff.

[Zvon]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Murphy was said to have taken the field as a coach following Westrum's late-season resignation but I've never seen a photo of him in uniform and don't know his number. It's become common more recently to have staff in addition to players up when rosters expand in September. I am less inclined to consider them to be actual team staff even though they get uniforms and stuff.

Hmm. Thanks JCL. Most interesting.

I'm doing a photoshop parody of the Sgt Pepper album cover with all the 1967 Mets. I wanted Murphy in it somehow. Man, a pic in uni would have been awesome- jeeze, even a color pic of him in civies would have done. Id'a stuck that in there. Instead I used Murphs head bust from the collection of Met hall of famers and made him a statue. That'll have to do.

We have to find out what his number was! That would be a major coup.

[Edgy MD]

Funny thing is that he looked a little like Westrum. Older and less of the athletic frame from his playing days still remaining, but still. One may spy a rare shot of Johnny Murphy on the field and mistake it for Westrum.

[RealityChuck]

Just thought there'd be a nice catch all for obscure questions and such. For instance, August 2nd, 1972, the Mets are losing an extra inning game in St. Louis the same day their skipper, oddly enough from St. Louis, Yogi Berra is being inducted into Cooperstown. So, who was the Met skipper that day? Bringing Pignatano in from the bullpen?

You've got the wrong date: Berra was inducted on the 7th.

According to the Times, he managed in St. Louis that night (and in Shea the day before). Sounds like he headed to Cooperstown as soon as the Sunday game was over, and flew to St. Louis right after the ceremony.

At the time Mohawk/Allegheny Airlines flew from Islip to Oneonta (nearest airport to Cooperstown), and then from Oneonta to Chicago-Midway. Midway should have had flights to St. Louis. Or he could have taken a charter flight from La Guardia and flew directly to St. Louis.

[Lefty Specialist]

Wow. Contemplating airline schedules from August 1972. This is the very definition of 'deep in the weeds'.

Maybe Yogi got drunk and drove all night.

[Edgy MD]

Must've been a nice ovation for Yogi to come to work in St. Louis the night of his induction ceremony.

[ashie62]

BBR credits Yogi with all Met outcomes in 1972 fwiw

[stevejrogers]

RealityChuck wrote: You've got the wrong date: Berra was inducted on the 7th.

*face palm* due to writing the wrong date despite linking to both the text of Berra's speech and the UMDB page for the game, both having the correct date on it! Talk about sloppy copy editing...ugh!

According to the Times, he managed in St. Louis that night (and in Shea the day before). Sounds like he headed to Cooperstown as soon as the Sunday game was over, and flew to St. Louis right after the ceremony.

Oddly enough though, in my quick Google search on the matter, a recent Berra bio that had selected pages scanned in Google books said that Berra was given leave by the Mets for the Monday game. Obviously, hence my original question, the book didn't say who would have managed in Berra's absence.

Heh, so whomever wrote the book probably just assumed that would be the case, and didn't do what Chuck did and search the NYT archives!

[stevejrogers]

Ashie62 wrote: BBR credits Yogi with all Met outcomes in 1972 fwiw

TBF, I doubt they'd do that unless there was some sort of official interim, rather than a one day thing. Such as an illness or any other prolonged leave of absence.

[Edgy MD]

Even illness/prolonged absence won't do it. Don Zimmer doesn't have any of the wins and losses on his record for the 36 games he filled in for Joe Torre during the latter's prostate cancer treatment. Only one guy is eligible to get those credits/demerits.

If a guy is the manager on the payroll, all wins and losses are his, whether he is in the dugout, in the hospital, or in prison. That's a shame --- if only a minor one --- I think.

[Zvon]

Edgy MD wrote: Even illness/prolonged absence won't do it. Don Zimmer doesn't have any of the wins and losses on his record for the 36 games he filled in for Joe Torre during the latter's prostate cancer treatment. Only one guy is eligible to get those credits/demerits. If a guy is the manager on the payroll, all wins and losses are his, whether he is in the dugout, in the hospital, or in prison. That's a shame --- if only a minor one --- I think.

I feel its more than minor.

[Edgy MD]

Well, let's get to lobbying.

I think it'd make a great conference presentation to reveal the most dramatic changes that would occur in the historic record if records were adjusted to give credit to the guys actually managing affairs in the dugout over their superiors who were unavailable, absent, or ejected.

The Yankees got 21 wins while Torre was out. That doesn't change the all-time rankings as they currently sit, but it's a five-week-or so difference if Dusty Baker or Bruce Bochy or somebody come climbing up the charts.

[Zvon]

Edgy MD wrote: Well, let's get to lobbying. I think it'd make a great conference presentation to reveal the most dramatic changes that would occur in the historic record if records were adjusted to give credit to the guys actually managing affairs in the dugout over their superiors who were unavailable, absent, or ejected. The Yankees got 21 wins while Torre was out. That doesn't change the all-time rankings as they currently sit, but it's a five-week-or so difference if Dusty Baker or Bruce Bochy or somebody come climbing up the charts.

I'm not even concerned about how it might effect the current all-time rankings or knocking anyone down or up the list. I'd just like to see the guys who fill in get credit where due. I'd bet every manager on that list would agree.

[Edgy MD]

Well certainly.

[G-Fafif]

Bud Harrelson was a 3-0 manager in 1988 when Davey Johnson had to leave the team for the August series in L.A. due to family emergency. No mere caretaker, Buddy abandoned the CF platoon in the second and third games, keeping hot hand Mookie Wilson in the lineup against righty starters instead of going with Lenny Dykstra. The Mets swept, put long-sought distance between themselves and the Pirates and established themselves as darn near unbeatable at Dodger Stadium...at least until October. Buddy, meanwhile, enhanced his credentials as a potential manager, perhaps forcing Frank Cashen's hand a bit by 1990 when ousting Davey would serve the dual purpose of not losing someone who had been talked up as a prime managerial candidate. (The Blue Jays were interested in Harrelson at one point.)

The benching of Dykstra may have also paved the way for his trade to Philadelphia the following June.

[Edgy MD]

I'd like to see a team with a manager confident enough in the organization he's managed to leave the team for a scouting visit on occasion --- maybe skip a series in June to visit the AA team and another in July or August to pay a call on the AAA squad. He can phone in the lineup and surely his staff should be able to manage from there.

I would be supportive of the hitting and batting coaches taking occasional time off for similar reasons.

[RealityChuck]

I think it'd make a great conference presentation to reveal the most dramatic changes that would occur in the historic record if records were adjusted to give credit to the guys actually managing affairs in the dugout over their superiors who were unavailable, absent, or ejected.

Ejected would be difficult to assess. Suppose a team scores ten runs in the first inning, but the manager is ejected in the second. Who's responsible if the team wins?

Did Earl Weaver get credit for the loss of game four of the 1969 series? He was tossed in the third, down by one, but the Orioles tied it in the 9th and Billy Hunter was managing when the ball hit J.C. Martin.*

*Things I learned while looking up other things: People have speculated that if Weaver had been in the game, he would have protested that Martin had run inside the foul line and the umps would have called Martin out (That's nonsense, of course: the umpires would have ignored him since the rule was spottily enforced, they don't reverse their decisions in a World Series unless shoe polish is involved, and they were at Shea Stadium, with fans who were known to charge onto the field). Where was I? Oh, yes. Billy Hunter said that, from his vantage point in the dugout, he thought Martin was running correctly; Weaver would have had the same vantage point.

Oh, and Weaver claimed the only word he said to umpire Shag Crawford -- and for which he was immediately tossed -- was "Shag."

[Edgy MD]

Seems most sensible to dole out credit in the same way they do it with pitchers (or goaltenders, for that matter). Who's in charge when the team takes the lead for good. They can do it with or without the five inning minimum --- which I'm not particularly partial to anyhow. You're also responsible, as manager, for the opposing runners on base when you get tossed.

We can even uncover a new category of managerial saves.

[seawolf17]

And managing GWRBI!

[Lefty Specialist]

I'm guessing Dusty and Bochy got tossed as much if not more than Joe anyway, so it probably wouldn't help them.

[stevejrogers]

I'm probably the only one wondering but, whatever happened to the Mets' HOF busts?

The only ones I know about are the Seaver, Stengel and Hodges ones that are now in the lobby of their respective VIP entrances at Citi Field.

Also kind of curious about the Cooperstown-esque plaque Murph got on the occasion of his Frick award that hung in the Diamond Club lobby. There was also one for Gary Carter that is now in the offices of his foundation.

[Zvon]

I think it'd make a great conference presentation to reveal the most dramatic changes that would occur in the historic record if records were adjusted to give credit to the guys actually managing affairs in the dugout over their superiors who were unavailable, absent, or ejected. Ejected would be difficult to assess. Suppose a team scores ten runs in the first inning, but the manager is ejected in the second. Who's responsible if the team wins? Did Earl Weaver get credit for the loss of game four of the 1969 series? He was tossed in the third, down by one, but the Orioles tied it in the 9th and Billy Hunter was managing when the ball hit J.C. Martin.* *Things I learned while looking up other things: People have speculated that if Weaver had been in the game, he would have protested that Martin had run inside the foul line and the umps would have called Martin out (That's nonsense, of course: the umpires would have ignored him since the rule was spottily enforced, they don't reverse their decisions in a World Series unless shoe polish is involved, and they were at Shea Stadium, with fans who were known to charge onto the field). Where was I? Oh, yes. Billy Hunter said that, from his vantage point in the dugout, he thought Martin was running correctly; Weaver would have had the same vantage point. Oh, and Weaver claimed the only word he said to umpire Shag Crawford -- and for which he was immediately tossed -- was "Shag."

I read very recently that no one mentioned a word about the call at the time. Not a peep. I don't even think there was any speculation by the talking heads in the booth.

The picture showing J.C. inside the line (from behind) was developed later that day. It was brought to the publics attention that night and in the Newspapers the following morning, and that's when the debate about that play began in earnest.

Hard to say what Weavers vantage point would have been. He usually sat in the same place, or typically stood with a foot on the step, but would walk the dugout sometimes. I imagine during that play Weaver would have been on the edge of his seat or step paying attention, and, yes, if anyone would have seen JC stray off the baseline, it would have been him.

OE: I didn't read it. I saw it in the NBC pregame chat before game 5 of the '69 WS on youtube.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

Earl Weaver has gotten credited for the loss, as all wins and losses go to the nominal manager, whether he is in the game at the time or not, or indeed, whether or not he is even at the park.

But I would like to see a recalculation with this loss attributed to Hunter's record, attributed to the relief manager on the same terms it would be attributed to the relief pitcher.

[Zvon]

Recently I'm reading up on the Nolan Ryan/Jim Fregosi trade.

At Wikipedia I read this:
Contrary to popular belief, Ryan never wanted to be traded from the Mets and felt betrayed by the team that drafted him.

In Matthew Silverman's very kool book New York Mets 50 Amazin' Seasons I read this:
Ryan had asked for a trade, mostly because his wife Ruth was frightened by New York, and Ryan worried about her when he was on the road.

Which is correct?

[stevejrogers]

Recently I'm reading up on the Nolan Ryan/Jim Fregosi trade. At Wikipedia I read this: Contrary to popular belief, Ryan never wanted to be traded from the Mets and felt betrayed by the team that drafted him. In Matthew Silverman's very kool book New York Mets 50 Amazin' Seasons I read this: Ryan had asked for a trade, mostly because his wife Ruth was frightened by New York, and Ryan worried about her when he was on the road. Which is correct?

Unless its sourced, never trust Wiki. Ryan's own autobiographies from the 1990s corroborate with Silverman's story.

[Zvon]

Recently I'm reading up on the Nolan Ryan/Jim Fregosi trade. At Wikipedia I read this: Contrary to popular belief, Ryan never wanted to be traded from the Mets and felt betrayed by the team that drafted him. In Matthew Silverman's very kool book New York Mets 50 Amazin' Seasons I read this: Ryan had asked for a trade, mostly because his wife Ruth was frightened by New York, and Ryan worried about her when he was on the road. Which is correct? Unless its sourced, never trust Wiki. Ryan's own autobiographies from the 1990s corroborate with Silverman's story.

Kool beans. Thanks Steve

It does have a source and I'm listening to it now:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ivieleagueproductions/2012/03/14/the-kult-of-mets-personalities-nolan-ryan-kris-benson