Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot

[metsmarathon]

i don't know how you can really make a sound argument that palmiero's ped use is noticably worse than clemens', bonds', macgwire's, or sosa's, just because he failed a test after testing was made a thing. does that late-career test really undo all that he'd accomplished when roiding up was allowable?

also, lee smith? really? i guess... but... where's jeff reardon's hof plaque, then?

[Edgy MD]

I don't think there are many voters who differentiate between a period of "allowable" steroid use and a period of prohibition.

If they don't like you using, they don't like you using in 1998 just as much as 2008.

[metsmarathon]

well, noted cornball rob parker is one too many already...

[batmagadanleadoff]

Early Returns: Piazza On Pace. On January 8th, the players who will be inducted into to the National Baseball Hall of Fame next July will be revealed. No one was elected last year, and this year�s ballot is crowded � with new additions such as Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Frank Thomas, and Jeff Kent. For Mike Piazza, widely viewed as the best hitting catcher of all time, this will be his second time on the ballot. Piazza was passed over last year, receiving less than 60 percent of the vote. Even though there is zero evidence linking Piazza to performance enhancing drugs, there were writers who kept him off their ballot last year simply due to the fact that he played in the steroid era, while noting that they would include him the next time around. There were also plenty of writers who recklessly lumped Piazza in with known steroid users such as Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Sammy Sosa. Other writers cited Piazza�s lack of defending himself against steroid allegations as a primary reason for leaving him off the ballot. Now that Piazza has denied the steroid allegations in his book Long Shot, there seems to be no excuse left for the writers to hide behind. So, how�s Piazza faring so far? The ballot was announced about three weeks ago, and they have been trickling in from writers since then. Darren Viola (@RRepoz on Twitter) has been tracking the ballots and compiling the results. As of December 17th, with 4 % of the ballots counted, Piazza�s name appeared on 78.3 % of the time � a shade above the 75 % required for induction. If the current trend holds, Piazza will be inducted along with Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Craig Biggio, and Frank Thomas. There�s still a long way to go, but perhaps the momentum is (rightly) on Piazza�s side this time around. http://risingapple.com/2013/12/19/mike-piazza-faring-well-early-hall-fame-returns/

Later returns: Piazza off pace. Seaver's Vote % Record in Jeopardy.



http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/the_2013_hof_ballot_collecting_gizmo

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Who is the idiot spoiling his ballot by writing in Pete Rose. This is why no one will ever get 100 percent. There will always be some knucklehead doing something like that.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

In all fairness, whoever did that appears to have also voted for Mr. Maddux. It's more likely to affect legitimate candidates like Raines or Piazza or good ol' Pitches-to-the-Score.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: In all fairness, whoever did that appears to have also voted for Mr. Maddux. It's more likely to affect legitimate candidates like Raines or Piazza or good ol' Pitches-to-the-Score.

That's true in that Maddux doesn't need that vote. But if that ballot gets tossed, Maddux loses the 100 percent.

[Edgy MD]

The ballot won't and shouldn't get tossed.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Murray Chass just keeps getting kookier and kookier...


http://www.murraychass.com/?p=7013

[Ceetar]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Murray Chass just keeps getting kookier and kookier... http://www.murraychass.com/?p=7013

refusing to read random internet cranks. feel free to copy paste here.

[Frayed Knot]

The good thing about there being so many votes for the HoF is that no one guy's ballot, no matter how screwy, can affect things all that much.
So while the back and forth between the likes of Neyer & Chass is sometimes fun to read, I can't get too worked up over it all.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Ceetar wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: Murray Chass just keeps getting kookier and kookier... http://www.murraychass.com/?p=7013 refusing to read random internet cranks. feel free to copy paste here.

Having just come from the digital media, we always felt -- and were -- cheated when people cut and paste entire stories from the site. But I'll look for a couple representational paragraphs.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Here's one:

Piazza fanatics went bonkers when I cited his terrible long-time case of back acne as a possible telltale sign of steroids use. �Bacne,� they referred to it with ridicule. However, in an affidavit for George Mitchell�s 2007 report on steroids in baseball, Jason Grimsley said that Glenallen Hill, who was named in the report, �had the worst back acne he�d ever seen.� Yet Piazza�s fans still scoff at the acne evidence. Wrote one supporter: �I had back acne for many years and, this might be tough to believe, I�ve never used steroids. Eventually, it cleared up.� I�ll bet it didn�t clear up when baseball began testing for steroids. That�s when Piazza�s back cleared up. Through 2003 acne covered his back. Once testing began, no more acne. The Piazza fanatics don�t want to recognize the timing of the change in his back. mike-piazza4Piazza, however, denies in his book, published last year, that he used steroids. What else do you expect him to do? Ryan Braun denied that he used illegal substances, too, until the evidence overwhelmed his lies. Then he quietly accepted his suspension and missed the last 65 games of last season.

I anticipate the day when we demand our star athletes appear shirtless -- and facing away from the camera -- to appease the likes of Murray Chass.

Here's the Neyer stuff:

Rob Neyer is another blogger who has a problem with me. As if he had nothing better to write about � and if he didn�t his employer should dock him a day�s pay (I receive no pay for this column so don�t suggest the same for me), he wrote his entire column about my Hall of Fame ballot. That actually is a popular exercise among bloggers because they are jealous of the baseball writers who get to vote. They think they can do better, but they can�t vote and it pains them. Anyway, Neyer doesn�t think I voted for enough candidates. Even though I said I wasn�t voting for steroids-related candidates, Neyer wrote, he �can�t seem to find room on his ballot, or in his heart, or deep within the recesses of that powerful intellect, for Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, or Larry Walker.� Well, Rob old buddy, sorry to have to say this, but my standards apparently are higher than yours. I considered those players and concluded they weren�t Hall of Famers. When you get to vote, vote for them and anyone else you want. When you get to vote.

[Ceetar]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: Murray Chass just keeps getting kookier and kookier... http://www.murraychass.com/?p=7013 refusing to read random internet cranks. feel free to copy paste here. Having just come from the digital media, we always felt -- and were -- cheated when people cut and paste entire stories from the site. But I'll look for a couple representational paragraphs.

I agree...when it's something worthy of clicks and links although I always favor excerpts so people can get an idea of what they're clicking to. But the only value here is point and laugh value.

[ashie62]

Mike Piazza looked like the Incredible Hulk in the late 90's much like McGwire did. It is not a natural look..

Surely circumstantial thinking on my part, but Piazza may be paying for that or similar impressions for many many years in hall voting...

[Frayed Knot]

I have no problem believing that Piazza took steroids (as I've said before, anyone and everyone is suspect from that era) but parts of what Chass here is basing it on is either demonstrably false or highly speculative.

�There was nothing more obvious than Mike on steroids,� says another major league veteran who played against Piazza for years. �Everyone talked about it, everyone knew it. Guys on my team, guys on the Mets. A lot of us came up playing against Mike, so we knew what he looked like back in the day. Frankly, he sucked on the field. Just sucked. After his body changed, he was entirely different. �Power from nowhere,� we called it.�

Fine, but Piazza was always big, bigger than his brothers (even the older one), bigger than other kids his age, and worked at his strength from a young age. And this "power from nowhere" stuff doesn't hold up either, not as an amateur and not when he was hitting 50+ HRs over two seasons in the minors as a 22/23 y/o.

The bottom line is that what Chass seems to be doing here is looking for one instance, one second-hand rumor, or one twice-relayed statement that will allow him to disqualify someone for taking PEDs. So if some third party says that he thinks Biggio took drugs or that someone told someone else that he did then that's good enough for him. He's allowed his opinion but it's a stupid way to go filling out a HoF ballot.

[Edgy MD]

And then he dismisses "bloggers" (Craig Calcaterra) for re-using somebody else's stuff, which he does while citing Craig Calcaterra's blog as a source he feels no need to follow up on.

[seawolf17]

Edgy MD wrote: And then he dismisses "bloggers" (Craig Calcaterra) for re-using somebody else's stuff, which he does while citing Craig Calcaterra's blog as a source he feels no need to follow up on.

Totally agree. Plus he dismisses "bloggers" ON HIS FUCKING BLOG WHICH IS ALL HE HAS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A REAL JOB. Idiot.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

I love the whole thing about "this is my last ballot because I'm disgusted by everything but it might not be because I like the fact that I have one and other people don't."

It's like he has a morally superior card, but realizes his only opportunity to show he's morally superior is to keep voting.

[Frayed Knot]

I wonder if the writings of say Jim Bouton and others about the rampant use of "greenies" ever informed a Chass ballot?
Or the stories about Mays using all kinds of substances as a rubbing lotion and god knows what else?

[Edgy MD]

seawolf17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: And then he dismisses "bloggers" (Craig Calcaterra) for re-using somebody else's stuff, which he does while citing Craig Calcaterra's blog as a source he feels no need to follow up on. Totally agree. Plus he dismisses "bloggers" ON HIS FUCKING BLOG WHICH IS ALL HE HAS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A REAL JOB. Idiot.

And he cites as "support" a crazed "fan" who wants to carpet bomb the whole process by excluding anybody from the "steroids era" (as if that's got a clear beginning and end), clearly an attitude Chass doesn't share.

It's a sad state that has so many acting like such children.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Well, Rob old buddy, sorry to have to say this, but my standards apparently are higher than yours. I considered those players and concluded they weren�t Hall of Famers. When you get to vote, vote for them and anyone else you want. When you get to vote.

Murray's Not-Blog : Blogs :: This Paragraph :: "#sorrynotsorry"/"Obvsly you're just jealous"

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Deadspin having fun with Murray Chass


http://deadspin.com/murray-chass-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-hall-o-1493277221

[Edgy MD]

With 23.4% counted, Maddux is still at 100%.

I'm guessing, on the other hand, that anybody who is perhaps turning in a blank (or otherwise miserly) ballot, will be less likely to publicize it this year, for fear of the blowback.

[metsmarathon]

not that i want to see seaver surpassed, but if maddux does indeed get 100% of the tally, i'll be quite happy, as it might signify the end, or at least the beginning of the end, of hte silliness of not voting for first timers.

i'll also be happy with a 4-person class, as that would signify another silly barrier beginning to crumble. be nice if it could get up to five or six. (or more)

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Ian "Jeter...Jeter...Jeter" O'Connor is tweeting the 14 people he'd vote for A) If he had a ballot, and if voters could vote for more than 10.

Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Morris, Piazza, Raines, Schilling and Thomas + Glavine, Kent, Mussina and Smith.

[Edgy MD]

The thing is that most all of those are defensible. I mean, I'd bag Morris and Smith right out, but I wouldn't be embarrassed to vote for any of those others.

But I've got no more votes than Ian O'Jeter does.

[nymr83]

No morris or smith, but i would also add trammell

[Edgy MD]

Yeah.

The funny thing about blackballing Clemens and Bonds because it's just so easy to fill out a cromulent ballot without them.

I have trouble seeing how you can include Bonds and Clemens while leaving McGwire off. But I guess they are still technically clean. No admissions and no convictions, but the public evidence against them on record is pretty clear.

[seawolf17]

Edgy MD wrote: The funny thing about blackballing Clemens and Bonds because it's just so easy to fill out a cromulent ballot without them.

I've come full circle on Bonds and McGwire -- I think they should be in. It just doesn't make sense to have a Baseball Hall of Fame without them. By that logic, Clemens should be in too, but I hate him with the passion of a thousand fires, so I wouldn't vote for him. And you're right, I could theoretically do that these next few years because there are so many strong candidates.

My ten, for reals this time:
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Greg Maddux
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
T#m Gl@v!ne
Curt Schilling
Jack Morris

And I'd be okay with any or all of these guys if I could vote for more:
Jeff Bagwell
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker