Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Braun

[TransMonk]

"If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I'd be the first one to step up and say, 'I did it'."

"I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life that this substance never entered my body at any point."

It's fine if players want to argue their case within the rules that apply to the crime...but they shouldn't then say shit like this that is blatently not true. That's all I'm saying. He got off on a technicality the first time, but that's not the same as being innocent. He proclaimed innocence before he got off on that technicality.

[Ceetar]

TransMonk wrote: "If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I'd be the first one to step up and say, 'I did it'." "I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life that this substance never entered my body at any point." It's fine if players want to argue their case within the rules that apply to the crime...but they shouldn't then say shit like this that is blatently not true. That's all I'm saying. He got off on a technicality the first time, but that's not the same as being innocent. He proclaimed innocence before he got off on that technicality.

Everyone claims they're innocent when they're not. I mean, the only other option was to go full-on "no comment" and it's not like that really would've been received differently.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I disagree with that. If they only wanted the game to "look" clean they'd be like the NFL or NBA and pretend random testing is doing the job. If anything, baseball's pursuit of high-profile takedowns has had the effect of magnifying this idea there's a steroid issue unique to baseball. Because the people, media, etc, care more about steroids in baseball. but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up. This is ONE doctor/clinic that got around that would provide good stuff. How many other clinics around the country do you think there are? (And if Jetes was such a good leader, wouldn't he make sure his teammates had the names of the 'secret' ones?)

Arguing with the most cynical and least insightful person at the same time is hard work.

I believe almost all jocks are filthy, and as stated above doping by its very nature is a crime that is always ahead of its policing. Again, if a big showy effort simply to create the appearance of police work is all they desire, why orchestrate it so sloppily that Joe Fan can so easily call their motives into question?

[TransMonk]

Ceetar wrote: I mean, the only other option was to go full-on "no comment" and it's not like that really would've been received differently.

Sports fans have been programmed to accept a no-comment has a half admission of guilt...I think you're wrong. It would have been received much differently.

Anyway, I'm done arguing the point since it sounds like this rumor was just that. If you've decided you're OK with him on your team for whatever reason, then that's great for you...and theoretically Braun.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: TransMonk wrote: "If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I'd be the first one to step up and say, 'I did it'." "I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life that this substance never entered my body at any point." It's fine if players want to argue their case within the rules that apply to the crime...but they shouldn't then say shit like this that is blatently not true. That's all I'm saying. He got off on a technicality the first time, but that's not the same as being innocent. He proclaimed innocence before he got off on that technicality. Everyone claims they're innocent when they're not. I mean, the only other option was to go full-on "no comment" and it's not like that really would've been received differently.

This is plainly untrue. There are, again, plenty of players that, once they failed a test, copped to their use, came clean, apologized, and took their punishment. I'm unsure why you would asset this.

Braun didn't do this. He, in fact, bet his life, among other ridiculous and nasty and damaging things. This means not only does Trans Monk get to ridicule him, he can actually legally take Braun's life if he is of a mind to.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: ... but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up.

I don't believe that they're arbitrarily going after 'big guys'.
This biogenesis stuff landed in their lap courtesy of a small Miami newspaper and they're simply prosecuting the names who got caught up in it. Fernando Martinez got snagged in the net the same way ARod & Braun did.

If the evidence against Rodriguez is truly lacking then I hope that comes out, although count me among those who don't tend to believe the angle that Selig & MFY mgmt concocted this whole thing out of personal hatred coupled with an attempt to reign in big salaries. Remember also that Selig et al have A TON to lose in credibility if they swing and miss on this. The fact that the other dozen or so guys took their punishment without a fight (including Braun who took a longer punishment despite showing the willingness to fight) suggests that evidence is there. Could you imagine the shit-storm if they opted NOT to pursue this?

[Zvon]

Looks like the sideshow has already begun.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: There are, again, plenty of players that, once they failed a test, copped to their use, came clean, apologized, and took their punishment.

In Braun's case, there was a sloppy chain of evidence link. Braun capitalized on this chink in MLB's case to beat the charges. Other players presumably didn't have this defense available. Who can say how other players would have rseponded if they had Braun's defense. Every case is different. Nancy Grace drums up outrage because the alleged murderer then had the audacity to cover up the crime scene .... wipe his fingerprints from the murder site. Whatever.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: ... but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up. I don't believe that they're arbitrarily going after 'big guys'. This biogenesis stuff landed in their lap courtesy of a small Miami newspaper and they're simply prosecuting the names who got caught up in it. Fernando Martinez got snagged in the net the same way ARod & Braun did. If the evidence against Rodriguez is truly lacking then I hope that comes out, although count me among those who don't tend to believe the angle that Selig & MFY mgmt concocted this whole thing out of personal hatred coupled with an attempt to reign in big salaries. Remember also that Selig et al have A TON to lose in credibility if they swing and miss on this. The fact that the other dozen or so guys took their punishment without a fight (including Braun who took a longer punishment despite showing the willingness to fight) suggests that evidence is there. Could you imagine the shit-storm if they opted NOT to pursue this?

oh, no I don't mean it's concocted or personal hatred or anything, I think there's just a lot of grandstanding going on. Yes, they're just prosecuting what sorta fell in their lap, but what they're doing with it is not simply "here's our evidence, you violated the rules, here's the fine as it's been collectively bargained"

What they did to Braun and A-Rod is additional and focused. And we've seen no evidence or reason why they should get worse penalties than Fernando Martinez. Braun's reputation is so low because of the other thing that he just took it, but A-Rod definitely is being targeted specially and has every right to make MLB show their hand.

And how about an answer to this..if Braun fails a test this year, how many games is he suspended for? Is this part of the three strike policy or no? He's never been found guilty of failing a test. (or however you want to word that)

Edgy MD wrote: Braun didn't do this. He, in fact, bet his life, among other ridiculous and nasty and damaging things. This means not only does Trans Monk get to ridicule him, he can actually legally take Braun's life if he is of a mind to.

I have no idea what this means. irrelevant or not, the tester DID violate the rules. Braun certainly took it way too far, made it way too personal and hateful, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to fight it or to challenge the process or tester. That he's an asshole isn't really of concern to me, since I'm not hanging out with him.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: I have no idea what this means. irrelevant or not, the tester DID violate the rules. Braun certainly took it way too far, made it way too personal and hateful, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to fight it or to challenge the process or tester. That he's an asshole isn't really of concern to me, since I'm not hanging out with him.

Really? You really have no idea? Because I really don't want to spend all day on this if you're just feigning confusion.

You claim that everybody would and does behave as Braun did. I think that's plainly untrue.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

You know what makes this endless discussion of the morality of amoral, big-scheme-of-things trivial sportsmen and the blundering, dumber-than-they-think dullards appealing? It's the fact that it's so life-affirming, and the stakes are so high, and-- also-- that we're totally not having the same argument over and over and over and over, resulting in no greater edification. It's those aspects of this that keep me from wanting to take my own eyes out with syringes-as-chopsticks when I hear it.

I'd be okay with taking Braun at a bargain price. That includes Syndergaard, but only if they're paying most of Doucheboy's remaining contract.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

No way I'm giving up a top prospect for Braun. He comes cheap or not at all.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Braun and, say, $60-70M? So, Braun for the annual price of, say, Marlon Byrd for the next 8 years? Oh, I'd give up Syndergaard and an enchanted hammer for that.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: I have no idea what this means. irrelevant or not, the tester DID violate the rules. Braun certainly took it way too far, made it way too personal and hateful, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to fight it or to challenge the process or tester. That he's an asshole isn't really of concern to me, since I'm not hanging out with him. Really? You really have no idea? Because I really don't want to spend all day on this if you're just feigning confusion. You claim that everybody would and does behave as Braun did. I think that's plainly untrue.

the bet his life bits.

Who comes out and says "oh, you're accusing me..you're right I did it." I get that afterwards some people confess and apologize. But they're apologizing for what they got caught doing, not for doing it. They don't mean it. I don't get why people dismiss these guys like all is forgiven just because they mouth some words some PR guy handed them. It's all spin afterwards, and it's all the same whether they apologize or feign ignorance or claim they're really innocent. Braun, Pettitte, Clemens..all the same in my eyes.

So yeah, maybe Braun took it further beyond where most would've given up and admitted guilt. But of course, he did eventually get to the point where the test was ruled invalidated. And had the private medical results not been leaked, you never would've known. So why should he have proclaimed himself guilty of something we shouldn't even know about?

[Edgy MD]

I don't know what we're talking about. I could just respond to every line in your post because it's all goofy but what's the point?

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't know what we're talking about. I could just respond to every line in your post because it's all goofy but what's the point?

There's really no point.

I don't hold anything against players for the BS they spout. I'd prefer them to be nice friendly non-hateful people, but the legal/PR angles they take mean absolutely nothing.

[Edgy MD]

Fine and understood, but how about not jerking me around by pretending to not know what I'm writing when it's plain and clear?

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Fine and understood, but how about not jerking me around by pretending to not know what I'm writing when it's plain and clear?

I'm not, I really have no idea what you meant by gambling with his life and Transmonk as the right to kill him stuff.

[Edgy MD]

Braun betting his life: it's in the video.

Transmonk and his the right to kill Braun: Satirical comment based on Braun's statement that he was willing to bet his life.

Did you watch the video?

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Betting his life: it's in the video. Transmonk his the right to kill him: Satirical comment based on his statement that he was willing to bet his life. Did you watch the video?

ahh, no. headphones, work, etc. Probably watched it originally. clarified. thank you.

[Vic Sage]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Braun and, say, $60-70M? So, Braun for the annual price of, say, Marlon Byrd for the next 8 years? Oh, I'd give up Syndergaard and an enchanted hammer for that.

Agreed, and the enchanted hammer, too... but not Mjolnir! I'll never give up Mjolnir!

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: And how about an answer to this..if Braun fails a test this year, how many games is he suspended for? Is this part of the three strike policy or no? He's never been found guilty of failing a test. (or however you want to word that)

Failing a test is not the only way of violating the league's PED ban. 'Outside evidence' (or however they specifically word it) can be evidence of guilt as well.
So if Braun were to fail a test in the future, that would I guess qualify as strike #2 and a 100 game ban. Why he agreed to 65 games rather than fight for 50 is unknown to me but most likely falls into the category of judging that the details becoming public would be worse than the extra 15 games, especially as those extra games were to be essentially throw-away games at the end of a season in which he was rehabbing injuries anyway. If there were only 53 games left in the season or 71 the penalty probably would have been a 53 or 71 game suspension.

Rodriguez obviously has different ideas on his matter although I don't claim to know who's right here.
I personally think Selig is over-shooting but ARod, rather than negotiate for something between 50 & 211 or even 50 and no more, is holding out for ZERO with no compromises in between as he maintains a full Lance Armstrong denial stance.

[Ceetar]

I guess I'd have to read it, but presumably they have to furnish this "outside evidence" to someone? Otherwise this 65 games feels like a plea bargain type deal where you aren't actually found guilty.

anyway, I really just want to actually see the evidence. If A-Rod hadn't fought it, no one would've. Presumably now at least the arbiter has seen it.

The line for outside evidence isn't exactly clear cut. Take that doctor from Toronto that A-Rod and Reyes and a bunch of others were messing around with. (this was before this CBA, so probably slightly different wording?) That never amounted to anything that I recall, but MLB presumably could've tried to punish them as well.

I dunno, I just feel like we're getting all the guilt trips and admonishments without the evidence. the media, and even baseball, seem more interested in just telling us these guys are the bad guys than actually delving into details.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: I guess I'd have to read it, but presumably they have to furnish this "outside evidence" to someone? Otherwise this 65 games feels like a plea bargain type deal where you aren't actually found guilty.

Sure they present the evidence to someone -- the player who is being accused.

We, MLB, suspend you, Ryan Braun, because we have records showing beyond our doubt that you received illegal PEDs from whatisname at Biogenesis.
Do you wish to contest the charges?
No? ... OK, 65 games

If he doesn't like the penalty, either the length of it or that it exists in the first place, he has the right to have the case heard by an independent arbitrator who will rule either in his favor, the league's favor, or somewhere in between. This process is usually "binding" (if you agree to the process you agree to live with the results) and the rules as to how it works are spelled out in the Basic Agreement between MLB and the union and apply to various grievances not just drug violations.

That Braun chose not to contend them--especially seeing as how he wasn't shy about doing so in the past--should tell you that his side didn't think the evidence was either weak or non-existent. Also it was at this point that his denials ceased, his apologies started, and his public image building with fans and the previous sample collector commenced.
The other 11 chose not to contest the evidence either. The idea that only MLB's campaign against Rodriguez is weak, made-up, grandstanding, whatever, would seem odd to say the least. Maybe the size of the penalty is over-reaching (I've thought so all along) and the fact that he's fighting this makes it more likely that details will leak so maybe we will get a peak under the hood eventually, but that's not the same as saying there's no evidence or that it's not incriminating or that it doesn't fit the drug agreement in the CBA.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: The idea that only MLB's campaign against Rodriguez is weak, made-up, grandstanding, whatever, would seem odd to say the least. Maybe the size of the penalty is over-reaching (I've thought so all along) and the fact that he's fighting this makes it more likely that details will leak so maybe we will get a peak under the hood eventually, but that's not the same as saying there's no evidence or that it's not incriminating or that it doesn't fit the drug agreement in the CBA.

of course not. But inferring the depth of it by the parties reaction is faulty. I understand MLB is not a court of law, and that MLB doesn't have to reach a certain point before they can accuse and penalize a player. That's what the union is there for, and presumably if it was trumped up they would've fought for it, but hell, if this is a big story that deserves regular attention, I'd like someone to at least investigate the details for me.

I guess there just aren't enough facts for me to get angry at any of these guys for cheating nor do I think the crime is a big deal anyway. Is A-Rod just a blustering idiot or is the evidence not actually that overwhelmingly damning? Or did the insane and arbitrary length of the punishment pretty much force his hand? it's like $35-40 million right? That's probably the #1 reason he's fighting it.

[Zvon]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: No way I'm giving up a top prospect for Braun. He comes cheap or not at all.

For me, simple. This^.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: ... but hell, if this is a big story that deserves regular attention, I'd like someone to at least investigate the details for me.

Except that the details of a employer/employee discipline deserve to be kept confidential particularly when it comes to things like drug use. That's the way things were set up and I'm sure the players want it kept that way.
If/when ARod takes this to an outside legal theatre (he's either threatening to sue, or already has sued, MLB) then details will be more likely to become public and folks who choose to sit out of the arbitration hearings (as in both Rodriguez & Selig) won't necessarily have that choice.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: ... but hell, if this is a big story that deserves regular attention, I'd like someone to at least investigate the details for me. Except that the details of a employer/employee discipline deserve to be kept confidential particularly when it comes to things like drug use.

Well yeah, and that includes the appeals process and the procedures involved in that appeal/test. And fighting for that right was what got Braun the poor reputation to begin with.

[Edgy MD]

It's amazing.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

That is certainly one word for it.