Was Rey Ordo�ez the Greatest Mets' Shortstop Ever?

[Guest d'Kong76]

Buddy is one of my favorite Mets. Used to sponsor his bbr-dotcom
page until the renewal rate got crazy.

[Zvon]

Kong76 wrote: Buddy is one of my favorite Mets. Used to sponsor his bbr-dotcom page until the renewal rate got crazy.

Ditto. I'm sure I've told all my Met stories here more than once so I'll spare you the Buddy/postcard/autograph tale. A very approachable and sincerely nice guy.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Re-tell the tale ... it's a long ways 'til pitchers and catchers.

[Zvon]

I'm actually writing this up for a blog post. Buddy will get his own page.

Long story real short, while boarding the team bus out in back of Shea after a game he (and all the Mets) came out and were not stopping to give autographs. They had a plane to catch or something. But Bud was prepared. He had a stack of around two dozen postcards (the picture was a drawing of fans with banners at Shea around the border) that he had already autographed. He was handing them out as he walked by.
When he got to the bus he still had a bunch left and as he went to hand one to me, he looked at me and asked "If I give the rest of these to you will you keep one and pass the rest around?" I said" Sure Buddy! Gimme those!"
He did and I did.


I kept two.

[Frayed Knot]

Kong76 wrote: Buddy is one of my favorite Mets. Used to sponsor his bbr-dotcom page until the renewal rate got crazy.

And, for those who grew up in and around north-central Long Island, seeing Buddy at various local spots was not an uncommon occurrence back in the day.

[ashie62]

I was sitting in my orthodontists chair getting tortured when Buddy and Rose happened...

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

0rdonez was certainly a solid defender, capable of making some truly spectacular plays. He was quite flashy and I always had the sense that he sometimes made the more routine plays look more spectacular than they really were. Still, in the end, he was a solid defensive shortstop that was great fun to watch. He was essentially a liability at the plate. His poor plate discipline resulted in his striking out far more often than he walked. Coupled with his lack of power, his OBP was absolutely criminal, in my view.

Buddy wasn't flashy, but he was solid. Buddy didn't hit much either, but he mostly played in an era when shortstops were expected to be defensive stalwarts and their offensive contributions were generally considered to be secondary. Rey, on the other had played in an ere when shortstops were expected to be more than just a glove. ARod, Jeter, Garciaparra, Larkin, and Ripken were contemporaries of Ordonez. Rey wasn't remotely in their class. Rey was a throwback player who was simply 2-3 decades too late.

[Elster88]

Was Rey Ordonez the Greatest Mets' Shortstop Ever?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

bump

(in the bathroom at Tunnel with Straw)

[ashie62]

Rockin' Doc wrote: 0rdonez was certainly a solid defender, capable of making some truly spectacular plays. He was quite flashy and I always had the sense that he sometimes made the more routine plays look more spectacular than they really were. Still, in the end, he was a solid defensive shortstop that was great fun to watch. He was essentially a liability at the plate. His poor plate discipline resulted in his striking out far more often than he walked. Coupled with his lack of power, his OBP was absolutely criminal, in my view. Buddy wasn't flashy, but he was solid. Buddy didn't hit much either, but he mostly played in an era when shortstops were expected to be defensive stalwarts and their offensive contributions were generally considered to be secondary. Rey, on the other had played in an ere when shortstops were expected to be more than just a glove. ARod, Jeter, Garciaparra, Larkin, and Ripken were contemporaries of Ordonez. Rey wasn't remotely in their class. Rey was a throwback player who was simply 2-3 decades too late.

I'm thinking of Mark Belanger...Dal Maxvill...

[Edgy MD]

Rey-O may have struck out more than he walked (a rare occurrence), but he really didn't strike out that much. The hand eye coordination that made him a marvel in the field made him also a good bet to make contact at the plate. It just wasn't, you know, effective contact.

I think Lunch's on-air call with Francessa was defending BV for putting the hit-and-run on with Rey.

[ashie62]

Career Stats

Reyo 973 Games 767 Hits 339 K's .246 BA

Buddy 1533 Games 1120 Hits 653 K's .236 BA

[dinosaur jesus]

Ashie62 wrote: Career Stats Reyo 973 Games 767 Hits 339 K's .246 BA Buddy 1533 Games 1120 Hits 653 K's .236 BA

Ordonez: .246 BA, .289 OBP, .310 SLG, .600 OPS, 59 OPS+

Harrelson: .236, .327 OBP, .288 SLG (!), .616 OPS, 76 OPS+

As weak-hitting shortstops go, I see Harrelson in the second tier, with Larry Bowa, Don Kessinger, Roy McMillan, and Dick Schofield (both of them). First tier is guys like Maury Wills and Ozzie. Third tier is, like, Roger Metzger, Rafael Santana, Ozzie Guillen. Rey is in the fourth tier with Dal Maxvill--about as bad a hitter as you can be and play every day. After that you're in Ray Oyler territory, where the best glove in the world won't keep you in the lineup.

[Edgy MD]

I want to be a FTWH shortstop.

[RealityChuck]

Ashie62 wrote: Buddy wasn't flashy, but he was solid. Buddy didn't hit much either, but he mostly played in an era when shortstops were expected to be defensive stalwarts and their offensive contributions were generally considered to be secondary. Rey, on the other had played in an ere when shortstops were expected to be more than just a glove. ARod, Jeter, Garciaparra, Larkin, and Ripken were contemporaries of Ordonez. Rey wasn't remotely in their class. Rey was a throwback player who was simply 2-3 decades too late.

I'm thinking of Mark Belanger...Dal Maxvill...

Ray Oyler?

Managed to play over 500 games in the majors, with a line of .175/.258/.251. Regular shortstop of the 1968 Tigers world championship team; his line that year was an uneviable .135/.213./.186. The Tigers took their center fielder, Mickey Stanley, who had a grand total of 6 starts at short in his career (all coming after the Tigers had clinched) and made him their starting shortstop for the World Series.

[ashie62]

All Star & Gold Glover sixties Eddie Brinkman of the Senators clocking in with a lifetime BA of .226 and a very low K percentage....

[Vic Sage]

As weak-hitting shortstops go, I see Harrelson in the second tier, with Larry Bowa, Don Kessinger, Roy McMillan, and Dick Schofield (both of them). First tier is guys like Maury Wills and Ozzie. Third tier is, like, Roger Metzger, Rafael Santana, Ozzie Guillen. Rey is in the fourth tier with Dal Maxvill--about as bad a hitter as you can be and play every day. After that you're in Ray Oyler territory, where the best glove in the world won't keep you in the lineup.

the FTWH sstops would also include Aparicio, Bert Campaneris and maybe Vizquel. Dave Concepcion would be at the top of the tier, falling just a little short of being on the bottom tier of GOOD-hitting sstops.

[batmagadanleadoff]

dinosaur jesus wrote: As weak-hitting shortstops go, I see Harrelson in the second tier, with Larry Bowa, Don Kessinger, Roy McMillan, and Dick Schofield (both of them). First tier is guys like Maury Wills and Ozzie. Third tier is, like, Roger Metzger, Rafael Santana, Ozzie Guillen. Rey is in the fourth tier with Dal Maxvill--about as bad a hitter as you can be and play every day. After that you're in Ray Oyler territory, where the best glove in the world won't keep you in the lineup.

Rey Ordonez was about as bad a hitter as Ray Oyler was, maybe a hair better. A hair. Ordonez ought to be ranked in whatever tier Oyler is ranked in. That Rey played everyday is on the Wilpons, or perhaps Steve Phillips -- definitely not Bobby Valentine. But that the Mets were stupid enough to let this fraud of a baseball player play as much as he did shouldn't elevate Rey in any rankings. By playing more instead of less, Rey O probably hurt the Mets more than Ray O hurt the Tigers.

I like the way the Tigers played Stanley at short in the WS. Just more proof that hitting is way more important than fielding. Ordonez would've needed five years to hit as many HR's as Melvin Mora hit for the Mets during the couple of weeks he played short in 2000 before the media seemingly ran Mora out of town because he made a couple of errors, too.

[Vic Sage]

In terms of value of offense at SS over defense, Davey used to play Hojo a significant number of innings at SS each year (from 1985-1990, over 1 full season's worth overall during those 6 seasons), even when Kevin Elster was there. And when GG shortstop Buddy Harrelson took over from Davey early in 1990, and managed through most of `91, he continued to play Hojo there about the same amount, sitting Elster on occasion. Frankly, i would've played him there every day and let him become Ernie Banks, while also making room for more ABs for Gregg Jeffries at 3b.

But that's me.

[dinosaur jesus]

Vic Sage wrote: In terms of value of offense at SS over defense, Davey used to play Hojo a significant number of innings at SS each year (from 1985-1990, over 1 full season's worth overall during those 6 seasons), even when Kevin Elster was there. And when GG shortstop Buddy Harrelson took over from Davey early in 1990, and managed through most of `91, he continued to play Hojo there about the same amount, sitting Elster on occasion. Frankly, i would've played him there every day and let him become Ernie Banks, while also making room for more ABs for Gregg Jeffries at 3b. But that's me.

Except Ernie Banks was a good fielder. Davey tended to choose offense over defense (Wally Backman over Brian Giles, for example), but HoJo and Jefferies on the same side of the infield every day was probably too scary a thought even for him.

[Guest vtmet]

in answer to the title thread:

no...

IMO, Jose Reyes was a far superior overall player...

and for his era, I prefered Buddy Harrelson over Ordonez...

[Guest vtmet]

Are we doing one of these for each position? 2nd base and 1st base have a few interesting options, with several having success in limited timeframes...

[stevejrogers]

vtmet wrote: Are we doing one of these for each position? 2nd base and 1st base have a few interesting options, with several having success in limited timeframes...

The thread is a rib on the Grote one, considering the SI cover proclaiming the 1999 infield as the best ever, but if you want to throw up threads for other positions, have at it.

[Guest d'Kong76]

1/4 rib on Grote thread
1/4 re-visit to all threads lead to Rey
1/2 stepping stone for someone else to follow suit and do
another position in the same spirit

Thanks to Jeets for trying to explain.

[Zvon]

I always bitch about how bobbleheads never look like the guy, but now I see when they do they can look a lil creepy. Lil bit.

[G-Fafif]

Ken Rosenthal invokes the Mets' greatest (fielding) shortstop ever by way of saluting Tim McCarver.

Tim is the only baseball analyst who has worked for all four major networks. What astonished me about him in his later years � when I worked with him � is that he lost none of his passion, none of his curiosity, none of his love for the game or even its language. I can�t tell you how many times I heard him tell a player or manager before a game, �I have never heard that term before.� And then he would use that term on the broadcast, drawing sheer delight out of what he had learned. I don�t see Joe and Tim often � really, only at the games we work together. But I would relish the stories Tim would tell, stories about Bob Gibson, about Tom Seaver, about how the Red Sox�s Carl Yastrzemski stunned the Cardinals by taking extra hitting after the Sox lost Game 1 of the 1967 World Series. So many media companies lack institutional memory. Not Fox for the past 18 years. Not with Tim McCarver. We would talk while walking between clubhouses, going one from one meeting with a manager to another. During one such conversation in the middle of the ALCS, Tim told me that the Tigers shortstop Jose Iglesias reminded him of another defensive wizard from Cuba, former Mets shortstop Rey Ordonez. I agreed, then said, �Wonder if they know each other. I�ll ask him.� It turned out Iglesias did know Ordonez, had met him, was aware that he had won three Gold Gloves. I relayed the information to Tim, and he mentioned it on the broadcast. Stuff like that happened all the time. And it was such fun. I�m sure Fox will replace Tim with someone younger, but good luck to that analyst trying to match Tim�s work ethic.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ron Darling.

The end.

[G-Fafif]

[youtube:1coc1ibf]7rEGl6n2cvA[/youtube:1coc1ibf]

Where it began...

[metirish]

"He was on his knees Fran"......Healy left speechless.

[Edgy MD]

How about Gilkey spiking that 80-foot throw to set it up?