Winter 2012-13 Managerial Shuffle

[bmfc1]

So the Rockies, in search for their new manager, are apparently talking to ... wait for it ... Jason Giambi It's long been said that he's been a guy fairly popular with and appreciated by his teammates over the years, and the players certainly don't care about the roids stuff the way fans and media types do. But he still would have been somewhere around guess number 1,324 if you had asked me for likely candidates.

Clearly there was no harsh penalty for the steroid users from MLB--McGuire is the hitting coach for the world champions and Jason Giambi might be a manager. What's next: Sammy Sosa as an owner?

[Frayed Knot]

Nor do I think there should be any tough rules about former roiders - either those who admitted or others who were merely suspected.
They were doing something which, at the time, MLB & the players couldn't even be bothered to ban or even talk about and that maybe 1/4, maybe 1/2, maybe more of the league was doing.
Is Colorado supposed to not consider Giambi for manager because of stuff he did a dozen years and three organizations ago before the testing and the rules were even in place? Assuming that they think all his other qualifications are in order for managing, I wouldn't hold him up just for that reason nor would I want MLB stepping in to apply some kind of ex post facto punishment.

Baseball is simply going to have to come to terms with what went on in the '90s and considering those tainted by those times is, I think, a first step.
Or they can be like the NFL and pretend that steroids never existed and therefore aren't even an issue.

[bmfc1]

I was just making a statement. I find it both ironic and sad that these cheats are now the leaders of current players. Just my opinion. You're entitled to disagree but it didn't require a rebuttal worthy of a Biblical scholar.

[metirish]

Talk about thinking outside the box.

[Frayed Knot]

We haven't seen a manager traded for in a while, probably going back to Lou Piniella I think.
But now we have one and it's of the intra-division sort with the Blue Jays agreeing to let their guy John Farrell go to Boston in return for the teams exchanging players.
Reportedly the Jays will get infielder Mike Aviles from Boston while the heavy contract of Toronto's Adam Lind gets duct-taped to Farrell for the trip to New England.

TEAM	MANAGER	STATUS	UPDATES
BRAVES	Fredi Gonzalez	Signed thru 2013 + 2014 option
MARLINS	Ozzie Guillen	Signed thru 2015
METS	Terry Collins	Signed thru 2012 + 2013 option	Option picked up for 2013
PHILLIES	Charlie Manuel	Signed thru 2013
NATIONALS	Davey Johnson	Signed thru 2013
CUBS	Dale Sveum	Signed thru 2014
REDS	Dusty Baker	Signed thru 2012	Extended thru 2014
BREWERS	Ron Roenicke	Signed thru 2014 + 2015 option
PIRATES	Clint Hurdle	Signed thru 2013
CARDINALS	Mike Matheny	Signed thru 2013 + 2014 option
DIAMONDBACKS	Kirk Gibson	Signed thru 2014 + �15 & �16 options
ROCKIES	Jim Tracy	Signed thru 2013 - Resigned 10/7
DODGERS	Don Mattingly	Signed thru 2013
PADRES	Bud Black	Signed thru 2013 + options for �14 + �15
GIANTS	Bruce Bochy	Signed thru 2013 + option for �14
ORIOLES	Buck Showalter	Signed thru 2013
RED SOX	Bobby Valentine	Signed thru 2013 - Fired Oct 2012	Hired John Farrell away from Toronto - given multi-year deal
YANKEES	Joe Girardi	Signed thru 2013
RAYS	Joe Maddon	Signed thru 2015
BLUE JAYS	John Farrell	Signed thru 2013 - Had his rights traded to Boston
WHITE SOX	Robin Ventura	Signed thru 2014
INDIANS	Manny Acta	=#FF0000]Fired Sept 2012	Hired Terry Francona - reportedly for 4 years
TIGERS	Jim Leyland	Signed thru 2012
ROYALS	Ned Yost	Club option for 2013
TWINS	Ron Gardernhire	Signed thru 2013
ANGELS	Mike Scioscia	Signed thru 2018
ATHLETICS	Bob Melvin	Signed thru 2014
MARINERS	Eric Wedge	Signed thru 2013
RANGERS	Ron Washington	Signed thru 2014
ASTROS	Brad Mills	=#FF0000]Fired in August	Bo Porter hired for 2013 - ??

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Is it me, or did the Red Sox give up more-- to a better-equipped division rival, no less-- for a middle manager (actual, honest-to-goodness, league-average-y middle-infielder Aviles) than they received for a guy who ran the whole baseballing organization (two marginal minor-league relief arms)?

[Ceetar]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Is it me, or did the Red Sox give up more-- to a better-equipped division rival, no less-- for a middle manager (actual, honest-to-goodness, league-average-y middle-infielder Aviles) than they received for a guy who ran the whole baseballing organization (two marginal minor-league relief arms)?

Perhaps. I'm not sure what they see in this manager..it seems like a very 'inside the box' thinking. I believe there are probably hundreds of guys that could manage a major league team successfully in 2013 and to actually pay for one when there are so many you could get for free..

Does it say something that the GM thinks the Blue Jays manager is more valuable than himself?

[metirish]

Trading for a manager has to be one of the dumbest things in sports , it was dumb when the then Devil Rays did it, and gave up Randy Winn in the deal, paid Lou a lot of money and still lost of course.


IIRC Seattle wanted to trade Lou to the Mets for Reyes.......

[Frayed Knot]

The Mets traded some minor cog to get Gil Hodges out from behind Washington's bench and onto ours - and I think few would argue against the ultimate outcome for the New York side.

In all, trading for managers is such a rare thing that it would tough to draw much of a conclusion as to whether it's a good move or not except on an individual basis.

In this case Farrell had been in the Boston organization so they at least think they know what they're getting here and have judged the swap of players worthwhile.
They had liked him for a future manager a few years back but I think timing and their front office shuffling got in the way then.

[Edgy MD]

There are hundreds of guys that could manage a major league team. I think it's an open point how many or how few can do it successfully.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Bill Denehy was the guy the Mets traded to get Hodges.

I was sort of hoping when things were going bad the Mets could ship Bay to the Red Sox for Valentine.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: There are hundreds of guys that could manage a major league team. I think it's an open point how many or how few can do it successfully.

Mike Matheny's in the playoffs and Robin Ventura almost was. Baseball is starting to open up to the idea that there isn't one way to develop a manager and that the pool isn't the same 35 or so guys. The Red Sox still seem closed to that idea, and I saw a tweet that Valentine told someone he was always a place holder until they could get Farrell and that's why he only got two years. That's probably not why he got two years, but it does speak to the Sox having already decided who they wanted if the rumor was out there. And it doesn't suggest (nor does the speed in which they traded for him) they put in a whole lot of thought and energy into making sure he was the best candidate.

[Vic Sage]

stop the presses (what an archaic term!)... i agree with Ceetar. and with Irish. except i don't think there's hundreds of guys who could manage, I think there's 10s of 1000s of guys. With maybe hundreds who have the tools to do it successfully. So giving up honest-to-goodness major league talent for a manager is a questionable decision. The impact of managers is VASTLY overstated, IMO, and they're barely worth their contracts. The best of them might be worth a game or 2 here and there along the course of a season, but what has John Farrell done (other than lose more than he's won), to suggest he's among the best of them?

however, lets be real. Aviles is a 31 year old MI with no particular strengths and career OPS+ of 92. A useful bench player at best. So its not like Boston gave up anything. But in principle, and in general, i think its a bad idea.

Take Gil, for example. Yes everybody credits him for the `69 turnaround. But might not that team have done what it did without him? After all, a few years later, Yogi took a similar bunch to game 7. And other than `69, he was a losing manager with the Senators and then the Mets in 68, and managed the 70-71 teams to 3rd place/just over .500 finishes. Given that overall record, i find it hard to believe he had such a significant impact on the production of the 69 team... a team that succeeded on a pair of young aces, a solid BP, great defense, and a couple of hitters in the OF and off the bench. That we gave up a marginal player who turned out to be nothing was certainly compensation we were happy to live with, but what if we had given up a prospect named Amos Otis instead (which we later did anyway, but i'm just making a point). Then maybe we reconsider how much Gil's quiet authority meant to that 100-win team.

Now Aviles is NOT Otis, obviously, and as long as these deals deal with 31 year-old spare parts, then i guess its no harm. But i'd be critical of any such move that dealt prospects whose ceilings had not yet been reasonably understood.

[MFS62]

Vic Sage wrote: stop the presses (what an archaic term!)... i agree with Ceetar. and with Irish. except i don't think there's hundreds of guys who could manage, I think there's 10s of 1000s of guys. With maybe hundreds who have the tools to do it successfully.

But looking at that list, it seems there is something that might hold you back - you were a pitcher.
I remember when it was said that pitchers don't become good managers. Maybe that stigma still exists to this day. The only one there who jumped out at me as having been a pitcher is Bud Black.
And he was that guy:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/blackbu02.shtml

Anyhow, it seems that if you are a pitcher, you might want to consider another career objective other than major league manager.

Later

BTW- if you go to the bottom of that link, you'll notice that he was once drafted by the Mets, but did not sign with them and went back into the draft the next year. So fuck him.

[Theoldmole]

Fred Hutchinson was a pitcher who made a solid mark as a manager.

How about general managers? Clyde King comes to mind.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ed Lynch

[G-Fafif]

Bill Stoneman.

[Frayed Knot]

Pitcher/managers (off the top of my head)
Dallas Green
Roger Craig
Bob Lemon
Tommy Lasorda

[Edgy MD]

Vic Sage wrote: Take Gil, for example. Yes everybody credits him for the `69 turnaround. But might not that team have done what it did without him? After all, a few years later, Yogi took a similar bunch to game 7. And other than `69, he was a losing manager with the Senators and then the Mets in 68, and managed the 70-71 teams to 3rd place/just over .500 finishes.

If you look at the trends, rather than the net, they both speak well of him.

[Vic Sage]

i'm not dogging Gil... i love Gil. I just think his impact was greatly romanticized based on the enormity of the accomplishment (worst to first; clownish expansion team to world champions), his own Brooklyn hero roots, and his sudden tragic death. Other than `69, his managerial career was not particularly successful either before or after, and Yogi led the team to a Pennant and WS game 7 only 4 years later. So I don't think Gil was really the difference in their success as much as he was a symbol of change for the franchise.

[Frayed Knot]

So I guess those stories of Leyland getting the ax after the season are out the window at this point.


And it turns out that it's not Adam Lind and his large contract who is going from Toronto to Boston as a completion of the John Farrell & Mike Aviles deal (as first rumored) but rather RH reliever David Carpenter. Sounds like a guy who should be on the Cardinals.

[bmfc1]

Ozzie Guillen--fired.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

bmfc1 wrote: Ozzie Guillen--fired.

whoa.

[nymr83]

bmfc1 wrote: Ozzie Guillen--fired.

On his way out the door he praised Castro and Communism saying "I don't understand being fired for failing at my job!"

[Frayed Knot]

Even those off-seasons that look going in that they're going to be quiet aren't always so quiet.

TEAM	MANAGER	STATUS	UPDATES
BRAVES	Fredi Gonzalez	Signed thru 2013 + 2014 option
MARLINS	Ozzie Guillen	Signed thru 2015 - Fired 10/23
METS	Terry Collins	Signed thru 2012 + 2013 option	Option picked up for 2013
PHILLIES	Charlie Manuel	Signed thru 2013
NATIONALS	Davey Johnson	Signed thru 2013
CUBS	Dale Sveum	Signed thru 2014
REDS	Dusty Baker	Signed thru 2012	Extended thru 2014
BREWERS	Ron Roenicke	Signed thru 2014 + 2015 option
PIRATES	Clint Hurdle	Signed thru 2013
CARDINALS	Mike Matheny	Signed thru 2013 + 2014 option
DIAMONDBACKS	Kirk Gibson	Signed thru 2014 + �15 & �16 options
ROCKIES	Jim Tracy	Signed thru 2013 - Resigned 10/7
DODGERS	Don Mattingly	Signed thru 2013
PADRES	Bud Black	Signed thru 2013 + options for �14 + �15
GIANTS	Bruce Bochy	Signed thru 2013 + option for �14
ORIOLES	Buck Showalter	Signed thru 2013
RED SOX	Bobby Valentine	Signed thru 2013 - Fired Oct 2012	Hired John Farrell away from Toronto - given multi-year deal
YANKEES	Joe Girardi	Signed thru 2013
RAYS	Joe Maddon	Signed thru 2015
BLUE JAYS	John Farrell	Signed thru 2013 - Had his rights traded to Boston
WHITE SOX	Robin Ventura	Signed thru 2014
INDIANS	Manny Acta	=#FF0000]Fired Sept 2012	Hired Terry Francona - reportedly for 4 years
TIGERS	Jim Leyland	Signed thru 2012
ROYALS	Ned Yost	Club option for 2013
TWINS	Ron Gardernhire	Signed thru 2013
ANGELS	Mike Scioscia	Signed thru 2018
ATHLETICS	Bob Melvin	Signed thru 2014
MARINERS	Eric Wedge	Signed thru 2013
RANGERS	Ron Washington	Signed thru 2014
ASTROS	Brad Mills	=#FF0000]Fired in August	Bo Porter hired for 2013 - ??

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Watch the Fish reel in Bobby V

[Frayed Knot]

That would be paying a lot for managers by a team rarely willing to pay for players.
Not that Loria can't afford it (revenue sharing, publicly financed new stadium) but he sure doesn't seem like he wants to be on the hook for for that much cash and, when he does commit, he doesn't stay that way for very long.

[Fman99]

Fman99 wrote: Do you all think Guillen gets another crack at the Miami miasma?

I saw it coming. They were as big a mess as Boston, the only difference was the amount of money/years they have to eat to get him out of there.

[Ceetar]

Jose Conseco wrote: I can make the marlins into a contender. #noplacelikehome - Jose Canseco (@JoseCanseco)

[Ceetar]

oh man, the Rockies are interviewing Jerry Manuel.

excuse me while I snicker to myself.