The Melkman('s Supplier) Delivers!

[MFS62]

Making up a drug to justify an "I didn't know that was in it" defense.
Then, making up a website where it was advertised/purchased. (I'm guessing there was no Testosterone if there was a list of ingredients on the website.)

You have to give him some points for creativity. Interesting plan, but you have to deduct points for the execution.

Later

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: You mean that guy the Yanx were trying to give away in several trades* before calling him up as a last resort** even as Gene Michael admitted they didn't expect much from him? You mean that guy?

I mean the best hitter on the Yankees.

[metsmarathon]

Edgy DC wrote: I have to say, a timeline of Melky getting released by the Braves, to Melky working out with Alex Rodriguez and Robinson Cano, to Alex getting caught in a web of lies, to Melky getting similarly disgraced... It looks bad for Cano.

not at all suspicious one bit. nope.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: You mean that guy the Yanx were trying to give away in several trades* before calling him up as a last resort** even as Gene Michael admitted they didn't expect much from him? You mean that guy?

Doesn't that describe Jeter too?

I mean, Clemens and Pettittes and Melkys come and go, but apparently not the drug problems.

[Frayed Knot]

Doesn't that describe Jeter too?

Jeter Was a top prospect from the moment he was drafted. Cano, while promising, was never close to that.
And the Yanx never were trying to trade Jeter the way they were trying to, or at least were certainly open to the idea of, deal Cano.
So, no, I don't see where the two are remotely comparable in this sense.

Not that any of this makes Jeter above suspicion or Cano guilty; as far as I'm concerned, anyone who debuted since about the mid-80s is worthy of suspicion and the idea that we fans can sniff out ahead of time who is and who isn't is, for the most part, a waste of time guessing game. But the specific circumstances with Cano -- the associations and his rapid improvement (never .300 BA or 10 HRs in the minors but has achieved both every season since his promotion) -- certainly make some more worthy of speculation than others.

[Ceetar]

He was a top prospect, but weren't they questioning his ability to actually play, particularly defense at SS (well, they might've been right on that)? I thought there was a rumored trade for Nomar or something in like the '94 offseason? Or was that just a Steinbrenner "OMG this guy kicked the ball around a bit and doesn't look like he has bomber power!"?

[Frayed Knot]

Excerpts from John Sickel's archives - April 15, 2005 - or about three weeks prior to Cano's ML debut


Cano was signed out of the Dominican Republic in 2001 ... went to the Gulf Coast League for his pro debut, and did not play particularly well, hitting .230/.330/.364 in 57 games. Moving up to the full-season Sally League in 2002, he improved significantly, boosting his numbers to .276/.321/.445 and hitting 14 homers. 2003 was a split season: .276/.313/.377 in 90 games for Class A Tampa, then .280/.341/.366 in 46 games for Double-A Trenton. Cano split '04 again, hitting .301/.345/.497 in 74 games for Trenton, then .259/.316/.403 in 61 games for Triple-A Columbus. He's off to a hot start at Columbus this year: 12-for-34 with 3 homers in his first 8 games.

Cano is 22 years old [who's] shown steady development up the ladder, and has handled himself well in the upper minors at a young age. Scouts say he has above-average bat speed, and should be able to hit for average with plenty of doubles at the major league level. The main question about his bat is how much home run power he will develop. His home run totals the last three years are 15, 6, and 13. He seems to be whacking the ball for power quite well so far this season, granted the perils of small sample size. I know that some scouts project him to be a 20+ homer guy with maturity, while others believe he will settle into the 12-15 range. His plate discipline is average at this point, although his strikeout rate is reasonably low. I could see him hitting anywhere from .250 to .300 at the Major League level; he is young enough on the age curve to do that, but he'll have to keep working the zone well for it to happen.

One team that considered trading for Cano last summer decided that he would be a fine hitter, but that his glove was going to be a serious problem; the trade fell through for this reason. Cano has enough arm strength for third base, but his range is a serious question. Yankee sources say that his range will be at least average, and that he can handle either third base or second base with no problem. Sources from other clubs disagree; one told me that Cano would be a first baseman by the time he was 27 [he's currently 29], and that his bat wouldn't be good enough for him to start at that position. I haven't seen Cano enough myself to know which opinion about his range is the correct one, but the doubts among other clubs have been strong enough to hurt his trade value.

In my book this year, I gave Cano a Grade B-, noting that he "is young enough to improve his offense quite a bit more, but it is unclear where exactly he will fit on the diamond." I still think that's a fair assessment.



Now, make no mistake, this is still a good prospect report for a 22 y/o especially from Sickels who is not one given to gushing over the flavor of the month simply so he can say later on that he was the first to tout a particular player while hoping you'll forget about the 90% that he whiffed on. A 'B-' from him is a well-above average grade. But, at the same time, it's clear that Cano almost immediately became much more than Sickels or the other scouts & touts he's quoting thought he'd ever become in terms of BA, power, or even defensively.

Does that mean he had chemical help?
Not necessarily, but given the sudden improvement, the company he kept (is keeping?), and the era in which he played, it certainly raises questions especially in the wake of the media shifting to full "How can you fans be so stupid as to not have suspected Melky?" mode.

[Frayed Knot]

He was a top prospect, but weren't they questioning his ability to actually play, particularly defense at SS (well, they might've been right on that)? I thought there was a rumored trade for Nomar or something in like the '94 offseason? Or was that just a Steinbrenner "OMG this guy kicked the ball around a bit and doesn't look like he has bomber power!"?

Jeter made a ton of errors in his first pro season but just about every young SS does that.
He was the 6th pick in the nation in his draft (and would have been the 1st if not for a last-minute change of heart by the Astros) and the Yanx never wavered on him after he unexpectedly fell to them.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: He was a top prospect, but weren't they questioning his ability to actually play, particularly defense at SS (well, they might've been right on that)? I thought there was a rumored trade for Nomar or something in like the '94 offseason? Or was that just a Steinbrenner "OMG this guy kicked the ball around a bit and doesn't look like he has bomber power!"? Jeter made a ton of errors in his first pro season but just about every young SS does that. He was the 6th pick in the nation in his draft (and would have been the 1st if not for a last-minute change of heart by the Astros) and the Yanx never wavered on him after he unexpectedly fell to them.

That's not what I'm questioning. Just that there was an encroaching doubt he would seriously make it at the major league level and the existence of rumors that the Yankees were looking at other options. (This is all stuff I remember reading a couple of years ago, not so much back then in which I wasn't paying attention at all) The existence of said rumors, for both guys (and really anyone) would have to be a pretty powerful motivator to take something extra, particularly in a culture that practically frowned on you for _not_ taking something. Even now the stigma is more on getting caught and causing a scene than it is the cheating the game bit, at least from the players. Testosterone (well, if that's all he was taking..) probably does less for you than Toradol.

[Edgy MD]

Not that I'm not interested in open speculation that Jeter is a 'roiding tool (as opposed to merely a tool), but can you cite anything that suggests the Yankees or any other source had lost faith in young Derek?

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Not that I'm not interested in open speculation that Jeter is a 'roiding tool (as opposed to merely a tool), but can you cite anything that suggests the Yankees or any other source had lost faith in young Derek?

so no one else remembers this story/report/trade rumor then? That's what I'm asking. I remember reading it, but I don't know where. I guess I can spend the next twenty minutes googling. I vaguely remember it being by one of the Yankees beat-puppies in a "look what they almost missed out on" post about a rumored trade.

[Ceetar]

There was this "Almost traded Rivera for David Wells" one. post surgery and 'struggling' as a starter.

I imagine you can find similar stories for most guys too though.

According to Derek Jeter�s interview with Michael Kay on CenterStage, as a minor leaguer he was almost traded to the Florida Marlins for Bryan Harvey.

Rivera was almost going to a different team. Yankees owner George Steinbrenner didn't think Jeter was ready to be the team's shortstop in 1996, so he backed a deal that would have sent Rivera to the Seattle Mariners for journeyman Felix Fermin. Gene Michael, the Yankees' vice president of scouting at the time, and Brian Cashman, the assistant general manager and now the GM, argued to let Jeter start the season at shortstop.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/yankees/2009-10-06-yankees-quartet_N.htm

so yeah, a George thing. Not quite doubt, though no one seems like they expected him to be 'ready' in '96. Certainly he would've went into the season with a lot of pressure to perform or risk being replaced, particularly if the Yankees headed into the deadline needing to add offense or something.

[seawolf17]

a deal that would have sent Rivera to the Seattle Mariners for journeyman Felix Fermin.

That would have been, in retrospect, the greatest thing in the history of things.

[metirish]

seawolf17 wrote: a deal that would have sent Rivera to the Seattle Mariners for journeyman Felix Fermin. That would have been, in retrospect, the greatest thing in the history of things.

and Rivera might well have not ended up a murderer.....


it would have been win win as they say

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: That's not what I'm questioning. Just that there was an encroaching doubt he would seriously make it at the major league level ...

While you can always find SOMEBODY who'll take a counter opinion (although I can't imagine anyone who would admit to that one now) there wasn't much on Jeter and none at all that I ever heard about from within his own org
Within a year of being drafted BA ranked him as the 44th best prospect in the minors. By year 2 he was 16th, then 6th, then 4th, then Rookie of the Year by age 22. That's about as good as it gets for a prospect, especially a HS one.

... and the existence of rumors that the Yankees were looking at other options.

You always look at other options and I'm sure every player in the history of the game has been mentioned in trade talks at one time or another. But that's not the same as actively trying and/or being willing to move him, something they definitely did with Cano.






The Rivera trade stories have been printed before. He was having a nothing-special minor league career which was then interrupted by surgery. But, when he came out of his rehab throwing harder and with a newly found cutter, the Yanx pulled his name off the list of the guys they'd give up in trades. The rumored deal with Seattle was one of those things which, had it been proposed just a few months earlier, they would have made it without thinking twice. But, as the saying goes, timing is everything.

[Edgy MD]

Strange spinout on this thread.

[metirish]

Strange?, you ain't heard from Rick Sutcliffe baby. It's been far to long since I've heard Rick talk utter bollox but never sounded better .

http://m.deadspin.com/5936388/?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Rick wants Melky deported.

[Ceetar]

hell, I'm pretty much going to accuse everyone of steroids if Piazza doesn't get into the Hall next year.

[Edgy MD]

metirish wrote: Strange?, you ain't heard from Rick Sutcliffe baby. It's been far to long since I've heard Rick talk utter bollox but never sounded better . http://m.deadspin.com/5936388/?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow Rick wants Melky deported.

Oh, wow.

That's what I get for opening up the Cano can.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Cano, coincidentally or not, is 3 for his last 30.

[Ceetar]

speaking of suppliers, former Yankee Bartolo Colon: also taking HGH. Pitched to a 4 ERA in the AL East last season, did pretty well, worked out of the bullpen early. seemed pretty versatile, but they didn't bring him back.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Melky Cabrera will not win this year's NL batting average title. He requested that his name be removed from eligibility, and an amendment agreed to by the Player's Association and MLB made it so. Details in the link.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Swan Swan H wrote: Melky Cabrera will not win this year's NL batting average title. He requested that his name be removed from eligibility, and an amendment agreed to by the Player's Association and MLB made it so. Details in the link.

That's ridiculous. I mean, they can pass a new rule that makes suspended players ineligible, but opting out of consideration? That's stupid.

[G-Fafif]

See that batting average that was compiled by a guy who was eligible in every game in which he batted? Forget it exists.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

David Waldstein ?@DavidWaldstein in a related story, Jason Bay is also withdrawing himself for consideration for the NL batting title.

[Vic Sage]

Under the rules, Cabrera didn't accumulate enough ABs to qualify for a batting title. There is an exception to the rule (allowing ABs to be added to his total, lowering his average), but upon his request, the union and MLB agreed to suspend the exception. I agree with this decision. The exception was created to allow guys who were close to qualifying but fell short for legitimate reasons beyond their control (injury, trade) to still compete for the award. If they fell short because they were suspended for league rules violations, I don't see why they should get the benefit of that exception, particularly when the player himself not only agrees with that view but initiated it. This would have been a tougher question if he had actually qualified for the batting title and then was retroactively made ineligible. That has the Orwellian quality of rewriting history that is being referred to here. But that's not what happened. He did not qualify. And rather than allowing the league to create a FICTIONAL BA for him by adding ABs he didn't get just to make him eligible, the player chose not to do so. Good for him, despite it being an obvious ploy to curry favor and rehabilitate his reputation.