IGT Tues Jul 17 Mets at Nats

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I was thinking HBP, so... hey, baseball!

Yeah I was about to write it on the previous pitch.

[Edgy MD]

Ashie62 wrote: Ashie62 wrote: Told ya Good that now you're retired you can be a full-time asshole. Ask Sandy JCL, your parents have any children that lived? Fuck you

Ashie, you took about a half a dozen shits in this thread. If you hate the Mets, just say so and be the troll you want so much to be.

Otherwise, come back to the fucking light, man.

[ashie62]

Yes..you now it all...JCL started this shit.

Grow up NY slugs.

[Edgy MD]

The word is "know," with a K.

You didn't take a half a dozen shits?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

From the Silver Lining Department: Game Time-- 3:13!

[Guest Kong76]

I thought they were gonna win when Ike made that
nice play at first and threw home.

[Zvon]

Listen folks. A IGT is a place to watch/hear/read, support, and vent when the need be (IMO). I can understand if Ashie feels the need to vent. Esp during, as well as after this game. We are all Met fan friends here. So lets all ease up?

This was just a horrible loss. Lets not make it any worse.

[Edgy MD]

I don't know if that's what I call venting, but sure.

[Guest Kong76]

F you, Z! hee hee

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

If this were the old days we'd have had this out years ago, but better just to ignore as usual. But let's get off this notion that we're all just great guys doing our best to try and get along here. If you're going to be a deliberate ignorant no-account shit you've got to be prepared to hear it from time to time.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: If this were the old days we'd have had this out years ago, but better just to ignore as usual. But let's get off this notion that we're all just great guys doing our best to try and get along here. If you're going to be a deliberate ignorant no-account shit you've got to be prepared to hear it from time to time.

IF YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING TO SAY TO ME, SAY IT TO MY PRETEND INTERNET FACE

[Edgy MD]

Pelf's failure was an unwillingness to come inside. He set the guy up with curves, and then paints the black away with a 99-MPH heater. Sweet pitch, but you had the batter protecting away. Up and in, baby.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Pelf's failure was an unwillingness to come inside. He set the guy up with curves, and then paints the black away with a 99-MPH heater. Sweet pitch, but you had the batter protecting away. Up and in, baby.

Freudian? Parnell.

pitch selection again. Who chose that pitch? Who taught him/them to set up batters? Thole? Parnell? Warthen? This pitch selection stuff is way above my head..but I always seem to think they start batters off good and don't execute/pick the right/good/appropriate finisher. Seems like a lot of damage has been done against the Mets with 2 strikes.

[Zvon]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: If this were the old days we'd have had this out years ago, but better just to ignore as usual. But let's get off this notion that we're all just great guys doing our best to try and get along here. If you're going to be a deliberate ignorant no-account shit you've got to be prepared to hear it from time to time.

I totally agree with this.

I think I get where Ashies at. He's fed up. We need pen help bad and they arent makin the moves in the front office, just biding their time. I don't blame him for being fed up.

Look, I was fed up with the Mets and was at a point where I could not say or think anything positive about them. So I stopped coming here cause I thought whats the point of bringin everyone down if all I feel is negative. And that was stupid. Cause here is the place you should be able to be negative or fed up if that's the way you feel at the time.

Maybe I'm viewing this wrong, maybe there's more going on than I know (I don't read everything). Maybe its none of my business. And sure, you can and should butt heads with another if you feel its needed. If I say something you can agree, disagree,put me in my place, whatever.

k, Ill shuddup now.
Bad game. Maybe the worst. Gah!

[seawolf17]

Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Murph should be on 3rd there. with 2 outs probably better not to risk it. The RF, who's really a 1B, caught that backing up and on his heels. If there's a WP during this AB I'm going to throw the remote through the window.

Prescient.

Kong76 wrote: This Harper dude is gonna be a thorn in our sides for many years to come.

Yup.

Enjoyable game, outcome notwithstanding. Walked up and asked for the $12 cheap seats, and they offered us $5 extra-cheap seats that I didn't even know existed. (Downselling? Bizarre.) Very similar to the feel of Citi Field, actually, in terms of layout and sightlines. The press boxes really are as high as GKR say they are; they almost seem out of place, they're so high. Odd.

Made a visit to bmfc and his sons, who all seem like very good dudes.

Nats fans, by and large, a pretty agreeable bunch. LOTS of orange and blue in the crowd, way more than I expected, but very friendly all around. Had a nice discussion with a guy in front of me who's taking the train up next week to see the Nats at Citi; told him that I thought it was a comparable park.

Two thumbs up for everyone involved except Jason Bay, who is completely worthless out there, and the entire bullpen, obviously.

[bmfc1]

As mad as any of you are, imagine spending money to watch that game... and then imagine sitting in 99 degree heat in the opposing park while you watched. Jordany gave my son and I another Omir moment, and then high-fiving and going crazy with some of the people around me, that was great. And then the bullpen screwed it up again... and again. I was at the Tuesday game here a month ago so I've seen the Mets blow FIVE leads in the 8th inning or later.

Sandy hired the incompetent manager and put together this team. If he's such a genius, then he should be able to find better players, budget or not. Even a bad GM like Minaya took RA Dickey off the scrapheap. Where is Sandy's contribution? Shorty has no in-game managerial skills. Bringing in Beato with the bases loaded was idiotic and we said so at the time (not after). Beato is a kid and just back from the minor. Shorty should have left Byrdak in with the bases loaded.

At least I got to meet seawolf17. That was fun. I wish the Mets gave him a win.

[Frayed Knot]

I'm not buying this Terry blew the game stuff.

The alternative to bringing in Beato there was to let Byrdak [who started his outing going Single - Bunt - Triple] stay in against the RH hitting Moore who had already taken one LHP deep -- OR bring in one of Bautista or Rauch which I'm sure would have been met by lots of approval and not at all subject to a second guess -- OR bring in one from Beato/Rauch/Bautista even earlier to face their two best RH hitters (ZImmerman & Desmond) and not do the double IW thing.
Or is there some trustworthy guy in the pen I'm missing here who was left out there just waiting to help?

Does Terry get any credit for PH-ing Murph for his catcher when he did which forced a double-switch of Thole each of whom would up getting two hits?
Does he get any for PH-ing Valdespin for Bay even as many here pre-decided that was something he'd never have the guts to do?
Does the manager share in any of the reflected glory when the team comes back twice in the late innings or only the blame when the remaining players available give it back?

[Ceetar]

I don't blame Terry for this one. I would've kept with Ramirez (who hasn't allowed an earned run since returning from the DL) instead of going to Edgin in the 8th.

Edgin issuing the first walk though, was inexcusable. But that's why I hate switching relievers particularly with nobody on, you tend to find the ones that aren't doing good. We've been mentioning pitch selection lately, Edgin should've been firing strikes there right? He threw all fastballs, which is I guess what he has..

actually, why was Edgin brought in for the Righty and the Switch hitter? He got the lefty Harper out..maybe that is a spot you can question Terry at..


Parnell threw almost entirely curveballs near the end. He would've gotten the save if the Nats hadn't hit and run. The aggressiveness by the Nats ended up being the difference (SB by DeRosa is what scored in Edgin's inning too). Did Parnell not trust his fastball last night?

He got Zimmerman out on three fastballs. He started off Morse out with curves to 1-2, then a fastball for a ball and then a hit off the fastball. Two fastballs to LaRoche and the soft grounder that ended up a hit. From there it seems like he lost confidence in the fastball. Does this lead back to pitch selection? Gets Moore on three curveballs, fail to tie the game with runner on third with less than two outs. Gets Espinosa to 2-2 on curveballs, throws one fastball and it's smacked. bad location?

gets Flores on three curves.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: actually, why was Edgin brought in for the Righty and the Switch hitter? He got the lefty Harper out..maybe that is a spot you can question Terry at..

Yeah, that's really my main question with Terry. I questioned him pinch-hitting Murphy instead of Turner, and I may have some ammo if Murphy didn't smack a hit, but he did and I don't.

Beato was probably as good as any other choice. His control is probably as good as or better than the other righthanders available. I might have gone to Rauch just because Moore has likely never seen anybody that big, but he might've thrown one against the backstop too.

The grounder before that... did we have a chance at a double play?

OE: Oh, and Angel Hernandez.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: The grounder before that... did we have a chance at a double play? OE: Oh, and Angel Hernandez.

The Nats were aggressive, the Mets were not. We discussed last night about Murphy not tagging at second on the deep fly. That not turned DP was another one. To me it seemed like Ike saw that Beato was not necessarily in a position to get to first, that he was probably too far off the bag, and he had no idea where Murphy was. I think if he throws to second Murphy's there to retrieve the throw. I didn't see a good replay to see if Thole could've throw to first for the 3-2-4 DP.

[Lefty Specialist]

I hate how they do this to me every year, and how every spring I come back for more.

End game managing there is almost irrelevant if none of your relievers can get anyone out. It's like asking if you want napalm or a lit Molotov Cocktail. Both are going to burn you. Terry should have gone out himself and pitched an inning for all the good it would do.

It's trite, but Jesus H. Christmas, they need to find a reliable pen next year. And nobody currently wearing a Met uniform better be in it.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I don't have any big problems with the game managing either, the typical stuff that hurts the Mets hurt them again. Parnell and Byrdak, respectively, were the guys you wanted on the mound when they were there, and they're the guys who screwed up.

Going 3-6-3 would have been real risky, seeing as we lose if we don;t turn it perfectly, I don't have a big problem getting the out at home.

Tracky reports that Byrdak's final pitch last night was flinging his iPhone into his locker in a fit of shame and disgust, so there's that.

[Edgy MD]

It doesn't work like that with relievers, though. It would be easier if it did, but it doesn't. An guy who is impregnable one year is highly permeable the next. One year Doug Sisk is the Man Without an ERA, the next year he can't keep his slider down. One year Randy Myers is throwing batting practice, the next he's got the batters in tears. Messy Fiasco to Jesse Orosco. Tug McGraw spent most of his "Ya Gotta Believe" year as the worst pitcher on the team. Couldn't be touched down the stretch, though.

So you can't just say, "You failed, you're gone; you guys haven't failed yet, welcome aboard." You've got use judgment and shit, painful as it is to have to reinforce some of that judgment through bad results.

But we've had mostly bad results through a bullpen merry-go-round for six years now. I don't know what to say, but I don't think cleaning house gets us forward. Part of Casey's gospel was that if you've got two good relievers, one of them will go bad on you the next year, so you'd better get a third. That's smart, but it's hard to apply in an era where teams put themselves in a position to need five-seven good relievers.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: So you can't just say, "You failed, you're gone; you guys haven't failed yet, welcome aboard." You've got use judgment and shit, painful as it is to have to reinforce some of that judgment through bad results. But we've had mostly bad results through a bullpen merry-go-round for six years now. I don't know what to say, but I don't think cleaning house gets us forward. Part of Casey's gospel was that if you've got two good relievers, one of them will go bad on you the next year, so you'd better get a third. That's smart, but it's hard to apply in an era where teams put themselves in a position to need five-seven good relievers.

That first part is common knee-jerk reaction to everything though. It's why people want Valdespin right now, because he's had some big hits and that's what's in front of us.

Warthen?

[Edgy MD]

Well, I don't want knee-jerk management of the organization, certainly. And if that makes Alderson seem aloof, well, long live aloof.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Well, I don't want knee-jerk management of the organization, certainly. And if that makes Alderson seem aloof, well, long live aloof.

well clearly. I was just describing general fan reaction/expectation, not management.

He does also have to address the bullpen in some way though too. It's probably the hardest thing for a GM to do. Is it another pitcher? a lefty? a fireballer? a 'closer'? a new catcher to call games? a new pitching coach with a new approach? Any of them could work, or not work, or simply appear to work or not work.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

There's obviously a disease of CAHfidence going around, I think Rauch and FrankFrank caught it first and just passed it onto the others. Or maybe it was Acosta, whose case was fatal.

There is no cure but to will it back, one guy at a time, as a unit, and accept that relief pitching is unpredictable. Meantime, scoring more runs and making fewer errors would build some room for error.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: There is no cure but to will it back, one guy at a time, as a unit, and accept that relief pitching is unpredictable. Meantime, scoring more runs and making fewer errors would build some room for error.

10 games without an error now, they're 3-7.

but yeah, going 25 outs without a run last night wasn't good.

[bmfc1]

Edgy DC wrote: Well, I don't want knee-jerk management of the organization, certainly. And if that makes Alderson seem aloof, well, long live aloof.

It's not "knee-jerk" management to wonder why Justin "Pie In Your Face" Turner" is the only right-handed bat off the bench. Alderson is not GM'ing for 2012 but there has to be someone else out there. If he and his group are so smart, then find players better than Turner, Nickeas and Batista. The bar isn't that high on those three and yet we see them day after day. And the bullpen was the only area of the team that Sandy and Company focused on (Rauch and FF were FA's and he traded for Ramirez). Well done!

I better get used to Shorty's in-game machinations because he's not going anywhere. That means more "by the book" moves like Beato last night.

As for Murphy's base-running, we were in short left so we had a perfect line from him to the ball. He didn't go half-way so he could easily score, and we know he didn't stay on the bag to tag up. He was 1/4 way, as if he was unsure what to do because he didn't know if the ball would be caught. He should have tagged up but being unsure shows a lack of baseball smarts. To the contrary, Wright had a great read on a pop-up earlier in the game and would have scored if the ball stayed fair.

[Edgy MD]

Well, I'm specifically responding to the notion that the bullpen definitively must be turned over 100%. That's more vindictive than thoughtful.

The main reason the team had only one righty on the bench is that the team was so stacked with righthanders in the lineup. Part of platooning liberally is having the opposite hitting platoon group as your bench for the day.

Was a short right-handed bench a factor last night?