The Enemy Uptown: The 2012 Yankee Thread

[Frayed Knot]

The reason behind delaying one's HoF eligibility would be based on the hope that maybe five years down the road public sentiment on this topic will be less harsh than it is today. Attitudes change over time so those writers, ex-players, and other keepers of the flame who actually lived through the era and aren't viewing the pre-roids time as some bastion of purity may start to come around to the idea that total banishment of anyone who ever used, thought about using, or knew about others who used is maybe a bit over the top.

McGwire was a different boat IMO. The idea behind his return was more just to get him back in the game and in uniform to rehab his image somewhat. Clemens would have to save a few bus-loads of nuns and orphans before he could even get his image to approach the level that McGwire's started at, and ditto for Bonds who recently floated the idea of naming himself SFG hitting coach at some unspecified future date.

[Frayed Knot]

In other MFY news, Jeter had four more hits last night (and is hitting .400 in August) giving him 3,255 for his career.
That tied him with Eddie Murray for 12th place overall although that's not really the significant part. The significant part is that his next hit puts him exactly 1,000 hits behind Pete Rose's record of 4,256

Jeter turned 38 not quite 2 months ago. Rose's total at the exact same age as Jeter is now? 3,242. IOW, Rose, starting at the same point, stroked another 1,014 hits before hanging them up, meaning that if Jeter matches the same pace he'll have the record by 13 hits -- although I don't guess we'll be doing a countdown for this one.

Of course the trick is to staying around as long as Pete did (45 yrs + 5 months) and managing yourself helps out in those cases.
- Rose turned 38 at the beginning of the 1979 season (Jeter in the middle of this one) a year which turned out to be his final 200-hit campaign.
- After that he dropped to 185; then had the strike year in '81 where his 140 hits still managed to lead the league.
- He had two more full seasons at ages 41 & 42: 162 games/720 PAs for the '82 Phils and 172 hits, then slumped to 121 hits in 151 games/555 PAs
- Then both the games and hits dropped pretty drastically: 121 games/421 PAs/107 hits (.286 BA) in a year split between Montreal and back in Cincy, followed by another season of 107 hits (.264 BA), before his final 52-hit/272 PA season (.219) in 1986 at age 45

In August of '86 Rose's Reds faced the Giants in a 4-game series in Cincy and Rose went 8 for 11 (7 singles) with 4 RBI and raising his average 25 points. (it was nice of his manager to hit him 2nd in the order despite the .204 BA)
But then he went 0-for-10 against the Padres in the following series and never batted again.
Last hit: single to LF against Greg Minton
Last AB: a bases-empty strike out in the 8th inning facing Goose Gossage. I don't remember if it was known at the time that that would be his final AB.



Side note found in research: Pete Rose Jr played 21 seasons in both affiliated and unaffiliated minor league baseball and amassed 1,877 hits.
He was 2 for 14 as a major leaguer.

[Vic Sage]

i have no illusions about Jeter being denied 1st ballot HOF status 5 years after he retires (unless some damning personal facts come to light).
But is he an all-time great, or more of an accumulator who benefited from the luck of hitting atop a high scoring (high priced) lineup for a very long time, without loss of skills or significant time to injury?

What are the arguments against, if any? Just his deficit in the Black Ink test, and his overrated defense?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy DC wrote: Playing independent minor league ball your late forties and coaching in the bigs in your late forties aren't that similar.

Also, the guys are different. There's McGwire-and-baseball dependency... and then there's Clemens-and-baseball self-delusional dependency.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: i have no illusions about Jeter being denied 1st ballot HOF status 5 years after he retires (unless some damning personal facts come to light). But is he an all-time great, or more of an accumulator who benefited from the luck of hitting atop a high scoring (high priced) lineup for a very long time, without loss of skills or significant time to injury? What are the arguments against, if any? Just his deficit in the Black Ink test, and his overrated defense?

None that would keep him out. (although he certainly won't be unanimous, like I know someone somewhere suggested) But no MVP (though maybe deserved one?), never the best SS in the league (or really his own team..although that never seems to count for much. He gets credit for still playing SS even though clearly the right baseball move was probably to move him. But even the logical fallacies in his game are often glossed over and the narrative grants him so many intangible points. The media loves him because the things he's bad at (like the defense) aren't that clearly measurable and he gives them just enough nothing to placate their columns so that when he runs away and avoids questions they have enough that they don't speculate.

[Edgy MD]

Two prizes left for him to steal:
[list:2omb5a7t][*:2omb5a7t]Pete Rose's hit crown.[/*:m:2omb5a7t]
[*:2omb5a7t]Tom Seaver's HOF vote percentage crown.[/*:m:2omb5a7t][/list:u:2omb5a7t]

[seawolf17]

• Pete Rose's hit crown.
• Tom Seaver's HOF vote percentage crown.

Edgy DC wrote: Two prizes left for him to steal:

No and no.

Pete Rose Jr played 21 seasons in both affiliated and unaffiliated minor league baseball and amassed 1,877 hits. He was 2 for 14 as a major leaguer.

Li'l Pete was a Duck for a while. Dumbass behind us one night: "Hey, that Pete Rose Junior over there? That's Pete Rose's son."

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

seawolf17 wrote: Pete Rose's hit crown. Tom Seaver's HOF vote percentage crown. Two prizes left for him to steal:

These things are connected in that some voters submitted blank ballots in protest against Pete Rose's banishment thus denying Seaver an even higher percentage of the HOF vote.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Apparently, I'm not the only one to see a likely HoF ballot-eligibility-end-run here.

"So, I think it's hard to evaluate," Luhnow said. "We did send a scout yesterday to look at him, since it's right there. There's a bunch of guys that have been in that league that have big-league time and Roger is still associated with our organization." .... The Astros are just hopeless enough�and Jim Crane is just enough of a jock-sniffer�to help Clemens with his plan.

[Frayed Knot]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Pete Rose's hit crown. Tom Seaver's HOF vote percentage crown. Two prizes left for him to steal: These things are connected in that some voters submitted blank ballots in protest against Pete Rose's banishment thus denying Seaver an even higher percentage of the HOF vote.

Yeah, Seaver received five 'No' (blank) votes and I recall at least one writer admitting to submitting a totally blank ballot to protest the exclusion of Rose from consideration.
The other four are, I suppose, subject to speculation although there always seemed to be several in those days who would 'proudly' proclaim to never casting a 'Yes' vote for any first-timer, often based on the idiotic logic that if DiMaggio didn't get in on the first ballot then no one should.

That the Rose issue won't be there for Jeter's vote and that the no-first-timer mindset seems to be going away (not to mention the widespread Jeter-love among media-types) both add to the idea that Jeter could very well surpass Seaver's vote pct (total votes casts vary per year).

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

VENTURA 2012
MFY's swept on the South side

[Ceetar]

the Yankees Ivan Nova 'got hurt' on his last pitch of the game the other night. So they're going to DL him. awfully convenient.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Watch Joe Girardi look like a rookie manager taken to school by a wiley vet:

http://waswatching.com/2012/08/23/girardi-to-heckler-shut-up/

[Frayed Knot]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: VENTURA 2012 MFY's swept on the South side

The only thing that's salvaged this week so far.
Yanx had a 10-game lead in late July. Now it's down to 3.

[Ceetar]

And the first two non-playoff teams are only 3.5 and 4 behind for the WC.

[Edgy MD]

Only wish some of that water that spilled out of the Yankee bucket ended up in our'n.

[Frayed Knot]

Rays win v Oakland slices the lead to 2-1/2 on Yanx off day.

John New (Ivan Nova) to DL


btw, the Rays & As are playing a three-game series which started today. Series will be Thurs, Fri + Sat but both are off Sunday.
I assume that's got something to do with the Repub convention.

[Frayed Knot]

Back to the whole recent Yanquis/steroids connection thing for a minute.

Skip Bayless, the former Dallas-area writer who's been an ESPN talking head for years now, is apparently making "news".

Speaking on [ESPN show] "First Take" on Wednesday morning, Bayless said, "I am shocked by what I'm seeing from Derek Jeter right now. They all said he was washed up. All of a sudden, this man has turned 38 years of age in June and already he has more hits than he had last year. ... I'm seeing a whole new guy this year from last year ... Are you kidding me? You would have to have your head in the sand or your head somewhere else not to at least wonder, 'How is he doing this?' "



Now, make no mistake about it, Bayless is nothing more than a professional side-show clown and the show/role he's on is essentially a 'look how outrageous I can be' yap-fest which employs the worst aspects of the tired, sports-oriented point/counter-point format. Add in the fact that he's usually paired with the equally horrid (and, not-coincidentally, an MFY/Jeter suck-up) Steven A. Smith certainly raises the possibility (more likely the probability) that Bayless's "rant" was designed specifically so Smith had a ready-made counter-rant delivered to him on a platter.

But the more interesting part of the story is the backlash it's producing. I mean, sure, producing a backlash was the whole purpose of airing the piece in the first place, but the reaction naturally falls on the 'how can he say this about Jeter'/anti-Bayless side of the scale. And again, pointing out that Bayless is an idiot and that he has no proof other than speculation is hardly necessary here. But if one were to replace the name 'Jeter' with anyone else in the same age/performance/surge situation and it becomes exactly what media types should be doing with this topic and exactly what they most recently - and retroactively - scolded baseball and the public for NOT doing in the wake of the Melky & Bartolo Colon situations.

The problem, in the end, is not what Bayless said but that Bayless being the first (and probably only) one to say it thus far sullies the ground for a legitimate someone to even wade into the whole topic.

[Edgy MD]

Can one of these reporters actually dig for facts rather than just speculate? Lord knows, there are enough of them.

Leave the idle and baseless speculations to the rest of us.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Can one of these reporters actually dig for facts rather than just speculate? Lord knows, there are enough of them. Leave the idle and baseless speculations to the rest of us.

if you mean Bayless, I don't think he's a reporter, he's a ESPN 'be idle and baseless' guy.

What Murray Chass has said isn't any more idle or baseless. maybe less, considering it wasn't based on a statistical observation but a appearance one. But could that keep Mike from the first ballot? Could this keep Jeter from being left off by 5-6 so as to preserve Seaver's percentage?

[Edgy MD]

Do I mean Bayless? Do I mean Chass?

I mean one of these reporters. Any of them. They missed steroids last time. They're missing HGH this time. Like so much of latter-day reporting, it's opinion-rich and fact-poor.

Anybody sit through 11 seconds of a UFC bout? It's hard not to imagine that these guys aren't on just about everything. Can somebody please inquire?

[Frayed Knot]

Yanx lose two of three to Baltimore at home - and were a bit lucky to get the one they did.
In all they scored just 8 runs in the whole series on only 15 hits. Naturally half the runs came via HRs.
The Saturday game was the killer in that the Yanx, down by two in the 8th, were handed three runs via Walk - Walk - Error with 2 outs and the bases-loaded.

And this series is going to really drive Yanx fans crazy. In my limited FAN listening lately what I've heard has been an endless stream of YLDBs complaining about, of all things, that their teams hits too many HRs. It seems to me that they've always been a sensitive bunch about that topic because it interferes with the fantasy about how their team is actually a scrappy, underdog crew that just happens to be disguised in a $200,000,000/year costume.
So the complaints about how they hate the make-up of this lineup of theirs and are calling for more bunting and more hitting behind the runner (as if they're willing to adopt that strategy as a replacement for all the runs they've scored this year) -all egged on by the fact that most of the hosts blindly agree with them.
And it's tough for them to blame the injuries since the presence of Teixeira and (especially) ARod were seen as part of the problem rather than the solution.


O's now 2 back and the Rays 3.5
And who do the Yanx have coming up? 3 at the Rays, then 4 more with Baltimore, then (following 3 with the Sawx) the Rays again.

Should be a fun two weeks.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

With teams like the Mets, Braves, and Red Sox showing us the possibilities of monumental collapse in recent seasons, wouldn't it be great if the Yankees followed suit this September? I'd love to see them lose the 2nd Wild Card spot on the last day of the season or better yet behind and struggling to gain ground with a week to go.

Mind you, I fully expect that the Yankees will be hoisting the trophy for Championship 28 this October, but it's nice to daydream.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I knew the minute Selig announced there'd be an extra WC team that the MFYs would be one.

It would be Super Awesome if they failed to get that much.

I also am considering a ride on the SHaMwagon.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I knew the minute Selig announced there'd be an extra WC team that the MFYs would be one.

Yeah, they'll probably snag the second wild card with like 87 wins and then everyone will roll over for them in the postseason.

[Ceetar]

hard to see. That team is extremely flawed.

of course, all it takes is some pitchers getting hot. for anyone.

[Frayed Knot]

Yanx still have a ways to go before they'll be in danger of missing the playoffs altogether - although a scenario where they need the 2nd WC is certainly in play and their 16-18 record since July 27 says something.

To miss entirely they'll have to get passed in the division by either Baltimore or Tampa, and then at least two of the West loser between Oakland & Texas (and maybe LAA), the Central loser (Detroit/ChiSox) and whichever of Baltimore/Tampa doesn't win that division

Yanx are 2 games behind Texas
1 game ahead of Oakland
2 games ahead of Baltimore
3.5 up on Tampa
3.5 up on Chicago and 4.5 up on Detroit -- both pending Sunday Night's outcome

[G-Fafif]

Tigers won, breathing down MFYs' necks.

Girardi said "we're in control of our own destination." Hope it's a distant third.

[Ceetar]

G-Fafif wrote: Tigers won, breathing down MFYs' necks. Girardi said "we're in control of our own destination." Hope it's a distant third.

yeah, Joe, but so are the Orioles and Rays.

[Fman99]

I think I'd like to see them win one of the wild card spots and then lose the one game play-in. It'd give those rubes in the Bronx an entire winter to gripe about how they got screwed by the system.

I'm curious to know what Mr. Met Puppet Guy thinks about this whole thing.