Pauly No (Catching 2012)

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Tracky this morning relates insubordination by Paulino, refusing to take a bat to pinch hit when asked to by Terry (anonymously sourced, light on specifics). Unnamed Mets Person also expresses surprise (really?) that Paulino provided less power than they'd hoped.

Anyway, little secret that Paulino won't be tendered but there's division over whether to look to an acquisition (Shoppach, Rodriguez, Veritek, R Hernandez) or just go with noodle batted Mike Nickeas who's well regarded for his D. The speculation is Thole will catch 60% of the games.

Thole IMO was a big disappointment last year on both sides of his game but improved with the stick in the second half, I guess that's encouraging.

How do you see the catching going next year?

[metirish]

I'd be surprised if they didn't bring in a vet, I like Shoppach but he made $3 million last season, doubt the Mets will bring in a guy making that to mentor.

[bmfc1]

Thole may be the nicest guy around but he doesn't do anything well. He is weak at catching a baseball which is an important part of being a catcher. His arm isn't great. He has little power. Maybe he "runs well for a catcher." If he could hit .300, then we could have the making of a Jason Kendall-like player but he hasn't shown that ability. In other words, I'm not a fan.

As for next year, Sandy will say he's looking around and then decide to spend some of their limited resources elsewhere which means a Thole-Nickeas combination.

I hope that they trade for a big-time catching prospect soon.

[Edgy MD]

I think folks have been way too quick to cash in their chips with Thole in 2011. To me, that's more or less what first-time, full-time catchers look like, and if the rest of the lineup hadn't fallen apart, he would have flown under the radar. (He's pretty analogous to Murphy in 2009, in that regard.)

He hit about average for a catcher and caught sub-average, but he's young, cheap, and learning the ropes. If they can find him a better tandem partner than Paulino, I'm cool with seeing the project through.

I liked that story. I thought the specifics were enough and the story held together. I'm curious about Chris Snyder. How's his back? Has he signed with anybody yet?

[Guest sharpie]

I have no issue with giving Thole one more chance to prove he's a big league starting catcher. None of the names out there are very interesting but I would like some kind of offense out of the back-up catcher. Ramon Hernandez, we need you.

[metirish]

Snyder is a Free Agent according to BR, dude made over $6 million last season


http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/snydech02.shtml

[metsmarathon]

i'd look into having a mentor around, but not reaching for one financially. i think we can wait for one to come to us in that regard.

it's way too early to give up on thole.

[Edgy MD]

metsmarathon wrote: i'd look into having a mentor around, but not reaching for one financially. i think we can wait for one to come to us in that regard.

I support this, though Met fans are gonna go nuts with Alderson coyly playing markets by letting them come to him --- particularly with his own shortstop. What a time to do it.

[TransMonk]

I'm alright with giving Thole another year at 60% of the starts.

If Paulino wasn't sticking to Warthen's plan last year, then they need to find somebody who will. Personally, I think that if we're bringing back Pelf, he might benefit from having a vet catcher to help him stick to the plan.

If we can get one thing out of 2012 rebuild, I'm hoping it is getting the young guys on the pitching staff to be more consistent. I want the vet catcher who is most capable of helping with that. I'm not expecting him to be the go to guy off the bench.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'm with Edgy-- most catchers don't spring fully-formed from AA, dig? And his contact rate is above MLB average. Even at this stage in his development, he's off some utility, with some room for improvement. (Exactly how much is up for debate.)

Also, unless you're in some kind of Brewster's-Millions-y contest, you proudly want Shoppach over Snyder; they're practically the same guy, only the cheaper guy walks a little less and drives the ball more.

[Vic Sage]

Jake fox.

He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap.

[TransMonk]

Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox.

Per BB Ref:
November 22, 2011: Signed as a Free Agent with the Pittsburgh Pirates.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Intrigued by who the eff Jake Fox was after he hit like 10 HRs last ST. Pirates just nabbed him, though. Minor League deal.

http://www.kget.com/sports/mlb/story/Pirates-invite-Fox-to-spring-training/mLLSxBCSwUaFUHFn248K4A.cspx

Edit, quick draw, TM. Quick draw.

[Frayed Knot]

Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox. He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap.

Also has a sub-.290 career OBA (in 500 ABs) with all of 32 games (and 20 starts) at catcher in his career.
Sounds to me more like the guy you keep as a utility player who can also serve as your 3rd catcher in a pinch allowing you flexibility with the first two guys without fear of getting caught short if an injury occurs.

[Vic Sage]

Frayed Knot wrote: Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox. He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap. Also has a sub-.290 career OBA (in 500 ABs) with all of 32 games (and 20 starts) at catcher in his career. Sounds to me more like the guy you keep as a utility player who can also serve as your 3rd catcher in a pinch allowing you flexibility with the first two guys without fear of getting caught short if an injury occurs.

It's the sub-.300 OBP that makes him available cheap. His extensive minor league career shows a well-rounded hitter, and i wouldn't be surprised if he ultimately became one. But i think its a moot point now, because he apparently signed with Pittsburgh last week.
DOH!

[ashie62]

Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox. He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap.

Sound's like Crash Davis' cousin.

[Edgy MD]

They got all that in Vinny Rottino. Third-string catcheriness. Multi-position flexibility. Puncher's power. And he comes on a minor-league deal and without the OBP impairment.

[Theoldmole]

I still think Thole can grow into the job, but if they can get a veteran backup who can hit, call a game, and throw out base runners, I really don't care what they pay him. It's not my money.

[Edgy MD]

Sure, but it may be Reyes' money.

[Frayed Knot]

TheOldMole wrote: I still think Thole can grow into the job, but if they can get a veteran backup who can hit, call a game, and throw out base runners, I really don't care what they pay him. It's not my money.

If you can land a veteran catcher who can hit, call a game, and throw out base-runners you better not care what they pay him because it's going to be a lot.
The trick, of course, is finding one of those -- along with bmfc's "big time catching prospect" who just happens to be available for trade.

[smg58]

bmfc1 wrote: Thole may be the nicest guy around but he doesn't do anything well. He is weak at catching a baseball which is an important part of being a catcher. His arm isn't great. He has little power. Maybe he "runs well for a catcher." If he could hit .300, then we could have the making of a Jason Kendall-like player but he hasn't shown that ability. In other words, I'm not a fan. As for next year, Sandy will say he's looking around and then decide to spend some of their limited resources elsewhere which means a Thole-Nickeas combination. I hope that they trade for a big-time catching prospect soon.

Thole's defensive performance might be a bit skewed by his difficulties catching Dickey, and his OBP is very good for the position, but on the whole he just didn't look like a guy who could be starting catcher on a winning team. That being said, I'm not sure bumping him for a short-term veteran would be preferable to giving him the chance to prove me wrong.

The Reds and Yankees have two catching prospects each. The Red Sox have Ryan Lavarnway, on whom opinion is much divided (30 HR power, but questionable with the glove). All those teams would be looking for major league help, though, which means we'd need to replace what we give up.

As for Paulino's lost power, well, he did flunk a PED test.

[Vic Sage]

Edgy DC wrote: They got all that in Vinny Rottino. Third-string catcheriness. Multi-position flexibility. Puncher's power. And he comes on a minor-league deal and without the OBP impariment.

yeah, but i didn't KNOW that, so it doesn't count.

on edit: i looked him up. not that it matters, but they didn't get all that with Rottino. He's older, with 39 pretty shitty major league plate appearances to his name, so no real projectability there. And Fox's minor league numbers are significantly better, to the extent that means anything.

[MFS62]

I'd go for Ramon Hernandez.
Has catching experience in both major leagues, and I believe he still has some gas in the tank.

As for mentoring a catcher, I recall a Joe Garagiola story about Yogi Berra. When he first was learning to catch, Yogi said (according to Joe), "Bill Dickey is learning me his experience".

Later

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I've nothing to base this on, but I have a gut feeling you'd have to pay Hernandez more to strictly back up than to start; since he made $3 million last year and is coming off a very solid part-time season, that might make him a bit of a luxury.

[MFS62]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I've nothing to base this on, but I have a gut feeling you'd have to pay Hernandez more to strictly back up than to start; since he made $3 million last year and is coming off a very solid part-time season, that might make him a bit of a luxury.

I'm not sure. He's a 38 year old catcher. I think he might be at the point where he's looking to extend his career in a part time role rather than burning it out as a starter. And when he does start, he still can hit and catch.
Worth exploring anyhow.

Later

[Frayed Knot]

Catcher Chris Iannetta from the Rox to the Angels in exchange for pitcher Tyler Chatwood

Jerry DiPoto making his mark.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

That Napoli trade worked out so well for them, they gave up Tyler Chatwood to fill the hole it made. (And another $64M to JasonBayWest!)

[Guest sharpie]

Then recently-coveted Ramon Hernandez signs with the Rox to take over for Iannetta.

[bmfc1]

Good stuff from Mets Merized:

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/the-sad-and-abominable-state-of-mets-catching.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MetsMerizedOnline-GetMetsmerized-NewYorkMets+%28Mets+Merized+Online%29

[Guest attgig]

so glad we said no to posada. i do agree though, Ramon Hernandez would've been a good one.