Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

[batmagadanleadoff]

If Ryan Braun had any honor, he woulda went six for six on the last day of the season. Jose Reyes may not be Ted Williams, but Ryan Braun definitely ain't.*



*Neither is anybody else, as if it's all of a sudden some big shame not to be Ted Williams.

[Edgy MD]

I guess it makes me a conservative old fuddy duddy, but honor is a really simple concept. It means fulfilling your explicit obligations --- legal, professional, contractual, moral --- even when it grows burdensome.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: he throws out topics that he thinks people don't finish, but not examples. And he's probably wrong. I think we finished this Iraq war better than say Vietnam.

i think that's yet to be seen. But I don't think he'd cite Vietnam as being within the scope of his definition of an honrable finish..

Ceetar wrote: Aren't mroe people finishing school and getting degrees, particularly college degrees, than say 30 years ago?

Maybe females are.

Ceetar wrote: I'm not sure what careers or projects he's talking about.

Certainly not mine.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: he throws out topics that he thinks people don't finish, but not examples. And he's probably wrong. I think we finished this Iraq war better than say Vietnam. i think that's yet to be seen. But I don't think he'd cite Vietnam as being within the scope of his definition of an honrable finish.. Well, it's over no? But Vietnam would be my counter example of why maybe things aren't quite so different now. Ceetar wrote: Aren't mroe people finishing school and getting degrees, particularly college degrees, than say 30 years ago? Maybe females are. I don't know the stats on this (and maybe if he really wanted to make a point, he should'vel ooked them up) but I think the definition of 'finished' in terms of schooling has changed. And I guess it depends how far back you're going. Ceetar wrote: I'm not sure what careers or projects he's talking about. Certainly not mine.

Perhaps mine, as I'm with my fourth company and don't expect to be here until I'm 65 or so. I'm not quite sure what's dishonorable about that though.

[Edgy MD]

Not necessarily anything.

And by "certainly not mine," I mean, I have no stability either.

Well, it's over no?

I don't know what this means. It guess maybe it's kind of over, but not quite. That doesn't mean it was well finished.

[Vic Sage]

Maybe I�m just getting old, but I would have held Jose Reyes in much higher esteem if he had played the full nine on the last day of the season, left it all out on the field, taking the risk and regardless of the outcome, walked away as a finisher, with honor and dignity.

i said the exact same thing, except without the "maybe i'm just getting old" part, and i didn't have to get into a discussion of "finishing". And I think honor and dignity are concepts that speak quite eloquently for themselves, and those who try to muddy those waters are just rationalizing some less-than-honorable or otherwise less dignified behavior.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: Maybe I�m just getting old, but I would have held Jose Reyes in much higher esteem if he had played the full nine on the last day of the season, left it all out on the field, taking the risk and regardless of the outcome, walked away as a finisher, with honor and dignity. i said the exact same thing, except without the "maybe i'm just getting old" part, and i didn't have to get into a discussion of "finishing". And I think honor and dignity are concepts that speak quite eloquently for themselves, and those who try to muddy those waters are just rationalizing some less-than-honorable or otherwise less dignified behavior.

honor is often "my way is the way to do things because It's the way it's always been done and I don't care if the way you've decided to do it works for everyone and harms no one."

And there is a difference between you/him thinking Reyes is less honorable, and him actually being less honorable.

[Edgy MD]

I don't know who you're quoting there. But that's nothing to do what I or he or Vic or anybody means. It's really simple.

And if I'm a conservative fuddy-duddy, Vic certainly isn't.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I don't know who you're quoting there. But that's nothing to do what I or he or Vic or anybody means. It's really simple. And if I'm a conservative fuddy-duddy, Vic certainly isn't.

people. I dunno. honor is not a black and white thing. Especially when you're talking morality like marrying a woman you knock up or something like that.


A simple example that I seem to see a lot. A man may think it's honorable to hold the door open for a woman, and that same woman may see it as misogynistic.

[G-Fafif]

metirish wrote: I think we need Tom Brokaw to tell us how it is.

There is honor in this observation.

[Vic Sage]

well, i'm a little on the fuddy side, but i hope not so duddy. Conservative? Nope, never been accused of that.

as someone who is an atheist with more than a dash of existentialism in my personal cosmology, and who often sees morality as contextual, a moveable feast if you will, and not about a priori absolutism, i realize i seem to be on the other side of this issue, but i don't think i am. because words have meanings, even if they're just contextual ones.

honor is a concept that has a meaning in the martial context that sports emulate, to the extent sports are about a contest of both physical and mental abilities, about helping your team/country/tribe win, and individual sacrifice to achieve that goal. Ask a marine about honor... but beware that if you put "quotes" around the word, he'll knock your fucking teeth out. Now sports are not life and death, and baseball is probably less explicitly military than other sports, especially football (thank you, George Carlin), but the sports culture, from the original Olympiads to the World Cup, to any other event you care to mention, has always raised its athletes in the "no I in team" / combat + self-sacrifice" ethos. And in that context, honor has a meaning. it's not just "honor".

And as i said before, if you simply compare Reyes' behavior to what you might idealize the behavior would be in that situation

"I'm paid to play baseball. Fans came to see me play baseball. I already missed a quarter of the season this year, and i don't yet know if i'll be back next year, or ever. So I owed it to the fans, to my teammates, to the organization and to myself to go out and play every game, every AB, like its my last, and to come back with my shield or on it. If i win a batting title that way, great. If not, not. I don't play for awards."

... then the shortfall = degree of disappointment.

i don't want to continue litigating the issue, but words have meanings, actions have consequences, and things matter.

[Edgy MD]

As I wrote up there, it means fulfilling your explicit obligations --- legal, professional, contractual, moral --- even when it grows burdensome. Expectations you knew about going in as part of your deal.

You want to know what makes it black and white? It's when somebody clearly felt obliged to do it, and would've, except it became too burdensome.

It's really of little consequence what Reyes did. But I think it's of bigger consequence that so many would call it justfied when it's not.

I don't want to continue litigating it either. But there's little else to talk about. Am I'm really trying hard to dishonorably avoid work.

[Ceetar]

well the mayor was taking it well beyond sports and seemingly attacking 'my' generation and using Reyes' last game as the focus for basically calling us unfocused quitters.

I don't think there was anything dishonorable it from a batting title thing, given how much he'd hit over the last week or so.

I would've liked to see him finish from a Mets fan/last game point of view, but I'm not thinking less of him for it. He's had a long Mets career for me to watch him, and I believe he'll be back.

Edgy DC wrote: I don't want to continue litigating it either. But there's little else to talk about. Am I'm really trying hard to dishonorably avoid work.

That's pretty much where I'm at. I thought there was something interesting/provoking in that article. I'd been thinking to myself recently about how older people glorify the 'good old days' and seemingly mock kids these days and call teenagers know-it-alls so it struck a chord.

I get that there is a black and white definition. But not adapting to changing expectations is not honorable either. Gil Meche might be an example of this. They made an obligation to pay him, he made an obligation to pitch, but it came to a point where that wasn't what best. "Honor" might've been to serve out the year he'd signed to, go through the motions, show up for camp, etc, but instead he walked away.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

You know what? I'm convinced.

About the Reyes thing, I mean. I kinda think the Bridgeton guy's more than a little full of old-guy shit, but Vic's swung me over.

[Edgy MD]

I'm certainly not saying the guy is Shakespeare, but he was speaking of trends in society at large, and not claiming your generation, whatever that is, started something that undercut his own.

Ceetar wrote: I get that there is a black and white definition. But not adapting to changing expectations is not honorable either.

I'm kinda lost again.

OE: Ah, fuggedit.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I'm certainly not saying the guy is Shakespeare, but he was speaking of trends in society at large, and not claiming your generation, whatever that is, started something that undercut his own. Ceetar wrote: I get that there is a black and white definition. But not adapting to changing expectations is not honorable either. I'm kinda lost again.

I guess it was 'maybe because I'm old' that made me assume he was talking about Kids these days or younger people or something.

There is honor in sticking to your commitments, but there is sometimes honor in breaking them. an unhappy marriage, a war that's original goal is incomplete, etc.

[Edgy MD]

I just... you're putting a lot of things on that stupid essay that aren't there.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I just... you're putting a lot of things on that stupid essay that aren't there.

I'm extrapolating to discuss a topic. I'm not necessarily trying to debunk an argument.

[metsmarathon]

Ceetar wrote: A simple example that I seem to see a lot. A man may think it's honorable to hold the door open for a woman, and that same woman may see it as misogynistic.

a man may think it's honorable to hold the door open for the next person to walk through. the same woman may be a bitch.

[Edgy MD]

Confusing old-fashioned polite gentlemanly chivalry with basic honor is deliberately muddying a very simple and clear thing. But if you want to have a conversation about door-holding....

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Confusing old-fashioned polite gentlemanly chivalry with basic honor is deliberately muddying a very simple and clear thing. But if you want to have a conversation about door-holding....

work has been crazy for the first two hours. I'll havea conversation about door knobs if you like.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

We don't pay nearly as much attention to Honor(e) as we used to, and I think that's a damn dirty, sand-smeared shame.

[Centerfield]

This article is crap. It's nothing more than another "things were better in the old days" throw-away piece meant to pander to old people.

You could write that article a hundred times and insert any number of different adjectives.

This generation has no honor. It doesn't have any pride in finishing. It also lacks tenacity, gumption, character, attention to detail. They lack values, no sense of family, home, respect for elders. These young kids don't know the value of a hard day's work.

Spare me. I can almost hear "My Way" in the background.

As best I can tell, this seems to be his main point:

"It was about finishing and it was about honor. If there is one fundamental difference between the generations, it�s that the last couple of generations don�t really finish well."

Ok. We get it. In the old days, things were great. Young kids suck. Got any backup?

"If you doubt that, think about Ted Williams of the Boston Red Sox. Heading into the last day of the 1941 season he was batting .400. He could have chosen not to play, risked nothing, and ensured that he ended the season with a .400 average. Instead, he played both ends of a double header, went 6 for 8 and ended the season batting .406. In that instant, a legend was born and no one has gotten to the .400 mark since."

Ok, you've got Reyes versus Williams. I'm with you that Williams was honorable and Jose took the easy way out. What else?

"I suppose my point is this, people don�t finish well today and they rarely finish with honor. Assuming a certain age, our parents or grandparents knew how to finish. They finished careers, raising children, fighting a war, and everything in between. Today, we don�t finish school, careers, marriages, projects or much of anything else. And when we do, many times we don�t do it with honor."

Any numbers? Any stats? Any specifics? Nothing? Because, see, I think the fundamental difference between last generation and this generation was that people of a certain age were purple. They had purple hands, purple arms, purple ears, purple feet and everything in between. Today, we have no purple. No purple clothes, no purple hair or much of anything else.

Without backup, articles like this are just filler. Ideas like this are meant to be grumbled to a bartender. When things are intended for publication I like to see substance behind it.

For the record, Reyes couldn't have played both ends of a doubleheader in 1941 because he wouldn't have been allowed in the league. He couldn't even ride in the front of the bus. There were no regulations against drunk driving, sexual harrassment, no such thing as a hate crime. Women used to smoke and drink throughout their pregnancies. So forgive me if I don't buy into the Mayor's argument with blind faith.

And finally, on the Reyes front, I get Vic's point. And I agree with a lot of it. I would have preferred Reyes to leave it all on the field. To me I would have been more proud of that than I am of his batting title. But I'm still proud of his batting title.

I don't get why he gets so much more grief about it than Wade Boggs, or Bernie Williams or anyone else who has done this in the past. I certainly don't think his transgression defines a generation. It is arbitrary and unfair to single out an individual player for doing something that has been common practice.

In fact, had Williams or Boggs been called out in the past, I doubt Reyes would have played it the way he did (at least Collins would have covered for him). But now that he's been the whipping boy, I'm sure everyone else will play out their last game.

[Edgy MD]

I understand the weaknesses of the article. The list of American mayors who were fine writers is short. But you're putting a lot on him that isn't there. We keep saying it's directed at "kids these days" and it's not. He cites "the last couple of generations" and doesn't exempt himself or his peers. To me, that's going back a ways.

And you don't need to tell a black mayor about discrimination, but that's not what he's talking about. He certainly doesn't say all things were better, so we shouldn't be throwing that at him either.

The issue to me isn't so much that Reyes walked out. It's that so many folks think that's OK.

I'm sure Boggs and Williams got their share of grief. I just don't care, because they weren't representing me.

[Edgy MD]

Shame on Boggs.

[Ceetar]

part of it is that people still think batting average means a whole heck of a lot.

if Boggs had played and went 2/18 in those last four games, or if Reyes had made two more outs and Braun had actually gone 3/4, it means absolutely nothing in terms of who is 'better'.

Reyes got ahead enough that it was possible. Doesn't it speak to his talent that he was able to do so? If you don't like that he sat out, maybe Braun should've had a few more hits going in.

Same argument if you don't like a batter styling after a HR. Don't throw him a bad pitch.

[Edgy MD]

Do you just not read what I actually write or what?

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Do you just not read what I actually write or what?

maybe I'm not just responding to you. maybe I'm just writing.


I don't have a problem with what Reyes did and take offense to the idea that you think there's something wrong with that. He's won the title because he got more H/AB than Braun did, and picking and choosing 2-3 (or even 20) AB to make a case that he somehow doesn't deserve it (as the writer in your link says of Boggs) is just silly. Why not put an asterisk after it because Braun played in 25 or so more games?

[Frayed Knot]

I haven't gotten around to reading that linked article yet ... but shenanigans involving batting races and the like have been going on for at least a century now. Nap Lajoie was virtually handed a title over Cobb when an opposing 3rd baseman played back so as to allow Lajoie like 5 bunt hits on the final day in order to overtake Cobb (all because no one liked Cobb). Oh yeah, there was also a free car involved so it wasn't just outsized pride but greed as well.
There are other stories as well.

Similar arguments were made back when Ripken was approaching Gehrig's record with a combination of old-timers and MFY fans (mostly the latter probably) claiming that Ripken was somehow undeserving of the record on account of sitting out partial games that Gehrig would never do* before going into the usual stuff about DH's, train travel, having to personally mow the grass and drag the field (uphill ... both ways) before the game could be started, and all that other nonsense.

I'm with most of the rest of you about not liking the way he/they handled that final day, but these 'charges' against Reyes are neither new nor unique.




* Gehrig absolutely did play partial games, sometimes for the usual reasons but also occasionally for the sole purpose of keeping the streak alive - once even being listed a the starting SS during a road game so he could get his AB then be "replaced" by the real SS never having taken the field. Ripken not only had something like a six year-long innings played streak that comprised the first half of his run but played some 98% of the innings it was possible to have played during the 14+ season-long record, a pct higher than that of Gehrig.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: maybe I'm not just responding to you. maybe I'm just writing.

No, I actually think you're responding to me. You address me directly sometimes, and chime in with phrases that suggests you're retorting.

Ceetar wrote: I don't have a problem with what Reyes did and take offense to the idea that you think there's something wrong with that.

So, you're addressing me now? How on earth is my position offensive to you? I read what you write. I honor you with thoughtful responses.

Ceetar wrote: He's won the title because he got more H/AB than Braun did, and picking and choosing 2-3 (or even 20) AB to make a case that he somehow doesn't deserve it (as the writer in your link says of Boggs) is just silly.

I didn't say he didn't deserve it. Nobody did. Or are you not addressing me here?

Frayed Knot wrote: I'm with most of the rest of you about not liking the way he/they handled that final day, but these 'charges' against Reyes are neither new nor unique.

You're offending Ceetar.