Former Mets Respond

[Guest Edgy DC]

Roberto Alomar (90.0%)
"...I really cared when I was there in New York. I really loved New York. The New York Met organization was great to me."

John Franco (4.6%)
"It is disappointing. I was hoping for at least 5 percent. I thought I'd get five. Anyone who has the fourth-most of anything -- hits, RBIs, wins, saves -- you figured it had to mean something. But it's another one of those things that you have no control over. So you just have to take it."

John Olerud (0.7%)
Carlos Baerga (0.0 %)
Lenny Harris (0.0 %)
No comment on record that I could find.

[Gwreck]

The Mets' official statement:

"�All of us at the Mets congratulate Roberto Alomar on baseball�s most prestigious honor, his well-deserved election into the Hall of Fame."

[seawolf17]

Something tells me that Johnny "knows a guy" who's going to get a plaque for him in there anyway.

[Frayed Knot]

seawolf17 wrote: Something tells me that Johnny "knows a guy" who's going to get a plaque for him in there anyway.

Yeah, but those guys are currently napping in a truck on an un-plowed street in Queens. In fact, I think it was a protest over the impending non-election which caused the snow removal slowdown last week.

[stevejrogers]

seawolf17 wrote: Something tells me that Johnny "knows a guy" who's going to get a plaque for him in there anyway.

Something tells me Franco may be in the next Class for the Mets HOF.

[Valadius]

I could see a John Franco-Edgardo Alfonzo Class of 2011.

[Guest cooby]

Carlos would get my vote.


Just for the record, I think Franco should have had more, too.


Lenny Harris? Please.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

John Franco (4.6%)
"It is disappointing. I was hoping for at least 5 percent. I thought I'd get five. Anyone who has the fourth-most of anything -- hits, RBIs, wins, saves -- you figured it had to mean something. But it's another one of those things that you have no control over. So you just have to take it."

Well John, using that logic, Lenny Harris should have garnered more (than zero) support since he is the all-time pinch hit leader for MLB.

[Benjamin Grimm]

While I don't think he belongs in the Hall, I was a little surprised to see Harold Baines drop off the ballot. He ended up with 2,866 base hits. I remember that late in his career there was a chance that he might reach the magic number of 3,000, and I wondered if that would "punch his ticket" or if he'd become the first 3,000 hit guy (other than Rose, natch) to fail to get to Cooperstown.

Do you think he'd have done much better if he had gotten an additional 134 hits? I'd like to think not, but I'm unsure. But I don't think that 3,000 hits has the same cachet that it once did. (There are 27 players who have reached that total. 3,500 would be much more exclusive; only five players have gotten that many: Rose, Cobb, Aaron, Musial, and Speaker.)

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think turning over the odometer would have helped a lot. There still would have been some resistance, but he'd have ultimately gotten in. He DH'd, but he didn't kill a guy.

Rusty Staub finished eight homers short of 300, and 286 hits short of 3,000 --- numbers he'd have easily reached if he spent the last four and a half years of his career in the American League instead of pinch-hitting for the Mets. He'd have probably skated in on the third or fourth ballot.

[Valadius]

The reason Harold Baines dropped off the ballot is entirely due to the backlog of candidates on the ballot and the ten-candidate requirement.

[Frayed Knot]

Valadius wrote: The reason Harold Baines dropped off the ballot is entirely due to the backlog of candidates on the ballot and the ten-candidate requirement.

When more than 95% of the electorate says 'No' the most likely reason one dropped off the ballot is entirely due to the fact that most people thought he wasn't good enough.
There's nothing unique about the current "backlog of candidates" that would cause a deserving player's numbers to be so low.

[seawolf17]

Valadius wrote: The reason Harold Baines dropped off the ballot is entirely due to the backlog of candidates on the ballot and the ten-candidate requirement.

Plus there was the whole "the vast majority of voters thought he wasn't a HoFer" thing.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I wonder, does Valadius really want there to be 15 or so inductees every year? That's what it sounds like.

[Valadius]

I would like to see a trend towards three-member-plus classes as opposed to one- or two-member classes, yes, especially with the three monster classes looming. For example, I would like to see Larkin, Raines, Bagwell, and Edgar Martinez inducted next year. I would vote for more, but those four deserve it more than the rest right now, IMO.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Neyer supports Franco, sorta.

[Frayed Knot]

Valadius wrote: I would like to see a trend towards three-member-plus classes as opposed to one- or two-member classes, yes, especially with the three monster classes looming. For example, I would like to see Larkin, Raines, Bagwell, and Edgar Martinez inducted next year. I would vote for more, but those four deserve it more than the rest right now, IMO.

Even leaving alone for a moment the idea that a certain class size is better or worse than a certain other class size, what makes you come to the conclusion that the reason those YOU think should be in but aren't (not yet anyway) was the result of an unreasonably finite number of spaces on the ballot?

[Valadius]

Frayed Knot wrote: Valadius wrote: I would like to see a trend towards three-member-plus classes as opposed to one- or two-member classes, yes, especially with the three monster classes looming. For example, I would like to see Larkin, Raines, Bagwell, and Edgar Martinez inducted next year. I would vote for more, but those four deserve it more than the rest right now, IMO. Even leaving alone for a moment the idea that a certain class size is better or worse than a certain other class size, what makes you come to the conclusion that the reason those YOU think should be in but aren't (not yet anyway) was the result of an unreasonably finite number of spaces on the ballot?

I don't come to that conclusion. I think that restricting a ballot to 10 players has resulted in some players falling off that could use another look. The reason those four players aren't in yet is because too many voters unnecessarily restrict their ballots to one or two players, and then follow the crowd once they notice other voters stepping up their support.

[seawolf17]

I don't like agreeing with Vlad, but I get what he's saying.

Interesting numbers analysis from a group calling themselves the Harvard Sports Analysis Collective: http://deadspin.com/5726724/bert-blyleven-got-in-because-hall-of-fame-voters-are-irrational-and-other-revelations

[Frayed Knot]

You say you don't come to the conclusion about finite ballot size, but then immediately follow that by saying, "I think that restricting a ballot to 10 players has resulted in some players falling off", so I've kind of lost track where you're headed with this.

If voters are voluntarily restricting their ballots to one or two players then that's their choice and, we are left to surmise, their way of saying that's as many as are deserving.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Interesting link, Wolfie.

[G-Fafif]

Newsday's Mark Herrmann (as picked up by Toronto Star) on the newest Hall of Fame New York Met.

COOPERSTOWN, N.Y.�We have it on good authority that Roberto Alomar really could play at Shea Stadium, after all. Pat Gillick, a fellow inductee into the Hall of Fame on Sunday, said he saw Alomar taking grounders and batting practice there as a little kid. Sandy Alomar was playing for the Yankees at the time, the Yankees were playing home games at Shea and Gillick was working for the Yankees. He couldn�t help but be impressed. �I thought then that there were probably good bloodlines, with his brother and him,� said Gillick, who tried unsuccessfully to sign 14-year-old Alomar for the Blue Jays, then traded for him in 1990. After that, Alomar blossomed into the great player whose career was celebrated Sunday. He became a terrific hitter. His older brother Sandy Jr., in a taped introduction during the ceremony, recalled that when they were teammates in Double-A ball, they could afford only a one-bedroom apartment. The deal was that whoever had the best game that day would get the bed that night. �I slept on the couch the whole year,� Sandy Jr. said. Roberto was even better as a fielder at second base, winning 10 Gold Gloves and earning praise as one of the best of all time. No argument there. He clearly is a deserving Hall of Famer. He belonged on the stage Sunday with Joe Morgan and Ryne Sandberg and Bill Mazeroski. But as for the people � such as Gillick � who say he should have gone in on the first ballot, we say things worked out just fine the way they did. Alomar made it in his second year of eligibility, which seems right in retrospect. Consider the one-year wait to be his payment for the way he played as a big-leaguer at Shea Stadium: not so hot. When he was a Met in 2002 and the first part of 2003, he just wasn�t the star the Mets thought they were getting. His batting average in 2002 was 70 points lower than it had been for the Indians the previous year, his home run and RBI totals were barely more than half. Yes, there is merit to the argument that a player either is or isn�t a Hall of Famer. He doesn�t get any better in his sixth year of retirement than he had been in his fifth year of retirement. In fact, this peanut stand did vote for Alomar the first time he was on the ballot. But it just seems right that he didn�t get the extra gold star as a first-ballot guy. He made only a passing reference to his time at Shea during his induction speech: �To the New York Mets, Chicago White Sox, Arizona Diamondbacks, Tampa Bay Rays, I wore your uniform with pride and dignity. And I want you all to know that I gave you my best, each and every time I hit that field to represent you. Thank you.� We will have to take his word for it. Maybe he really was trying his hardest for the Mets. Maybe his back hurt. Maybe age caught up with him; he never did regain his form. That was stellar form while it lasted. As Sandy Jr., who played with Roberto on the Indians and White Sox, said, �He�s Robbie Alomar, he�s the best.� It was touching to hear him address his family from the stage, acknowledging his mom as she was crying for joy, and telling his dad that as far as he was concerned, Sandy Sr. belongs in the Hall of Fame. Also, it was heartwarming to see how beloved Alomar is among fans at home in Puerto Rico and in Toronto. The biggest cheers of the day came when he acknowledged being the first player to go into the Hall as a Blue Jay. �My heart,� Alomar said later, �is half Puerto Rican and half Canadian.� It�s just too bad he didn�t leave a piece of his heart at Shea.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Points to Bert Blyleven for a kind shout-out to Gary Carter. "Plus," he added, "the ball was foul Gary. Let's get that straight."

He was referring to some obscure hit Carter got off of him, and I had to jog my memory to recall a time when Blyleven was a National Leaguer, with the familial Pirates in the late seventies. He later named Mike Dyer as the ump that blew the call and I tried in vain to find the game for a little bit last night.

[Ceetar]

appears to need a baseball-reference login.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/batter_vs_pitcher.cgi?batter=cartega01&pitcher=blylebe01#gotresults&batter=cartega01&pitcher=blylebe01&min_year_game=1978&max_year_game=1980&post=1&ajax=1&submitter=1

Carter homered off him Opening Day in 1979, but no Dyer that day.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I was looking for doubles. Something that landed near the line, I figured.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I was looking for doubles. Something that landed near the line, I figured.

I imagine it could've been in like an All-Star game or something to no? Someone here has good access to a database right? quick search on all games with ump=dyer C=Carter P=byleven should pull it right up.

[Ceetar]

in the post:

"The ball landed foul four feet and [umpire] Paul Pryor said it was a fair ball," Blyleven said Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/bert_pays_tribute_to_the_kid_2Oh14l2pBT17djFSfwPkgM#ixzz1T7lDYH5g

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, then, to heck with Mike Dyer.

No AC in my office this morn and I'm confusing forgotten pitchers with forgotten umpires.

[Gwreck]

June 27, 1980

Top of the first, with 1 out and Andre Dawson on first, Carter doubles to left field. Dawson scores. Immediately after the play, Pittsburgh catcher Ed Ott leaves the game, which to me suggests there was a collision at the plate. Retrosheet however indicates that Ott was ejected which suggests a controversial play.

Paul Pryor was the third base umpire.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Not much here, but I guess so: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=s6lRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zm0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6493,5006466&dq=carter+blyleven+ott&hl=en