Saving Warthen?

[Ceetar]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2010/09/13/2010-09-13_its_warth_saving_dan.html

R.A. and Pelfrey apparently want to save Dan's job. I disagree, I think he's a bad coach. I think he's bad at on the fly type adjustments, and in-game decisions as well.

What's the general consensus on this? I'm kinda unsure how much help Dickey got on his Knuckler from Warthen, I saw something from Amazin' Avenue that suggested that Pelfrey's roughly the same pitcher he was the last two years, and I'm disturbed about how bad he was in the middle and how long it took to correct. Perez has regressed and a bad pen in 2008 seemed to get worse as the season went on.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I figure Pelfrey and Dickey know more about Warthen than I do, so I'm not really inclined to "disagree." I acknowledge, though, that it's possible that their personal regard for him may be influencing their take on his skills as a pitching coach.

But if Warthen stayed and everyone else went, I wouldn't really have a gripe.

[metirish]

This is the kind of stuff you read every year as another rubbish season comes to a close, but yeah , the pitching staff weere good overall so if Dan stays then fine I guess.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

If you think a pitching coach ought to be able to turn a pitcher into someone else you're never going to be satisfied. I have no reason to believe Dickey and Pelfrey would campaign for a lousy coach.

[RealityChuck]

Despite the blather, the Mets pitching has been better than NL average, ranking about fifth in most categories. This is despite things like Perez, no consistent setup man, and injuries. Warthen can't be blamed.

It's the hitting that dragged down the team, with it being around 14th in major categories. If the team could hit league average, they'd probably still be in the playoff chase.

[Vic Sage]

No one here is any position to second-guess the players about who is or is not a "good coach". But I think a new manager, hired by a new gm, should have whatever pitching coach he wants, notwithstanding who likes or doesn't like the current coach.

[metirish]

One of the players that got to third base on a regular basis should be talking up Chip Hale, he was outstanding all year, not many if any fluffed chances right? , and he was aggressive IIRC.

[Ceetar]

metirish wrote: One of the players that got to third base on a regular basis should be talking up Chip Hale, he was outstanding all year, not many if any fluffed chances right? , and he was aggressive IIRC.

yeah, I don't think I have a problem with Chip Hale. I don't think I have a problem with Razor as a first base coach either.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Vic Sage wrote: No one here is any position to second-guess the players about who is or is not a "good coach". But I think a new manager, hired by a new gm, should have whatever pitching coach he wants, notwithstanding who likes or doesn't like the current coach.

Yeah, more or less this. I don't think there is a general consenus. There's some things that speak well of Warthan, some that speak ill. But if Skipper McNewblood wants to bring in Ken Schrom, he should get Ken Schrom.

I think the players know there's going to be big changes --- changes that can hurt them or sweep them right out --- so I think they're being more or less sincere here. That doesn't mean they're necessarily correct.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'm not a big fan of Ken Schrom. And a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-neighbor's-vet says he's kind of a lush.

(IOW, ditto.)

[Frayed Knot]

metirish wrote: One of the players that got to third base on a regular basis should be talking up Chip Hale, he was outstanding all year, not many if any fluffed chances right? , and he was aggressive IIRC.

Except that there weren't any players who got to 3rd base on a regular basis.
Well, maybe some did with chicks they met in bars afterward but that's a totally different subject and has nothing to do with Chip Hale.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Frayed Knot wrote: One of the players that got to third base on a regular basis should be talking up Chip Hale, he was outstanding all year, not many if any fluffed chances right? , and he was aggressive IIRC. Except that there weren't any players who got to 3rd base on a regular basis. Well, maybe some did with chicks they met in bars afterward but that's a totally different subject and has nothing to do with Chip Hale.

You kidding? Chip Hale: Third base coach, wing man! No one scores unless he tell you to.

[ashie62]

I would prefer the new manager to clean house and select his guys.

[Guest themetfairy]

Bobby is used to dealing with other people's coaches.

[metirish]

If tickets sales are a worry then Bobby has experience in selling them , cycling up and down Flushing drumming up support for the team would hardly be all that different from what he was at in Chiba City.

[ashie62]

The prior two posts...Thats the ticket!

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ken Schrom, it turns out, is vice president of sales and marketing for the Corpus Christi Hooks.

I don't see anybody giving that up coach the Mets pitching staff.

[ashie62]

He would have to move from Texas.

[MFS62]

I find it interesting that two pitchers who give Warthen credit are two who have had to rely on him for mental support perhaps more than for the coaching of pitching mechanics.
If he's that good with the mental aspects of coaching, would any coach have been able to better help Ollie Perez?

Later

[Guest Edgy DC]

MFS62 wrote: I find it interesting that two pitchers who give Warthen credit are two who have had to rely on him for mental support perhaps more than for the coaching of pitching mechanics.

How is that?

MFS62 wrote: If he's that good with the mental aspects of coaching, would any coach have been able to better help Ollie Perez?

The suggestion that Oliver Perez's pitching problems are by definition mental problems is more than a little played out, isn't it? Moreover, I also don't think that "mental approach" and "mechanics" are distinct from one another. A mental approach helps you master your mechanics. Perez appears to have lost five miles off his fastball. Is that his mental approach, his mechanics, or merely his body failling him? I know it's tempting to characterize a failing player as stupid, stubborn or lazy, but I'm certain it's generally not that easy.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Exactly the point I've been trying to make with a few friends re: Ollie (or Pelf, or whomever).

It becomes increasingly obvious that Perez is just what he always has been-- a guy who lacked the focus/discipline (or didn't have it taught to him) to develop a consistent set of mechanics, much less to consistently, effectively self-adjust in-game (see: Santana, Pedro, and virtually every other successful pitcher with a sustained career).

It's not like he has a switch to turn on, or that he's necessarily lazy-- he just appears to lack the extreme, laserlike focus that marks the overwhelming majority of successful major-league pitchers (and athletes in general). He may have thrown just as many practice sessions as most, but a guy like that (if this is what he is) doesn't get as much tuneup/refinement/practice value out of 1,000 practice pitches as Santana gets out of 5 or 10. The difference between him and most of the woulda-couldas is that he had good enough stuff/concentration in spurts to put up good-to-great superficial numbers a few times... and was fortunate enough to find a sap to pay him.

Does this make him a bad guy? No, but he must suspect on some level-- maybe the one that's connected to his eyes/ability to read statistics?-- that he's not as good as his contract, and that probably makes him feel a little (or a lot) defensive, and that makes him act in ways that most people consider "bad-guy" ways (mild petulance with the media, not subsuming his own desires for the good of the team, etc.). I don't think any coach-- at least not any coach in a Mets uniform-- is going to be able to do some sort of magic Ollie whispering that "breaks through" to him. He is what he is, and a savvy GM may pick him up after we dump him, coax something good by luck or hard work, then move him for something of more stable value.

A coach won't change his basic constitution; nor will a change of scenery (although that could help) or a Baseball Annie convincing him to wear garters and be patient when young girls get wooly. You can only fix what's broken. Ollie isn't broken (or at least, he wasn't until the velocity drop); he just is.

[metsmarathon]

all pro athletes are capable of that extreme laser-like focus, if only they were to care enough.

or so i hear.

[Frayed Knot]

But phrases like 'head-case' or 'can't handle New York' are so much easier to make and much more fun to throw around.

[Ceetar]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: E I don't think any coach-- at least not any coach in a Mets uniform-- is going to be able to do some sort of magic Ollie whispering that "breaks through" to him. He is what he is, and a savvy GM may pick him up after we dump him, coax something good by luck or hard work, then move him for something of more stable value. A coach won't change his basic constitution; nor will a change of scenery (although that could help) or a Baseball Annie convincing him to wear garters and be patient when young girls get wooly. You can only fix what's broken. Ollie isn't broken (or at least, he wasn't until the velocity drop); he just is.

I think, and thought, that Ollie was a guy that need more minding. I thought he should've had a minder when he went to Mexico for the WBC, and I suspect he'd be better off with a guy that works with him very closely, and say analyzes those practice pitches and helps him adjust. I believe a pitching coach can and should do this, and it's one of the reasons i don't like Warthen. I don't think he fits with Perez in this way, and there may be some of that in Pelfrey too. (obviously this is speculation, maybe he does/did work with these guys and they just weren't receptive, or able to make it work) I think Ollie can be very good, with the right guidence, but I doubt he'll ever break through and be great because he'll never quite take that next step on his own and really control the situation. I emphasize though for sure, as I should be laser-focusing on a project right now and i'm commenting about scarely used pitchers.

Sometimes it's not even the coach themselves, but merely that they're a bad fit. Warthen and Manuel were not selected to match up with the team, they were simply next in line.