The Wally Question (split from the Cora Question)

[Guest Edgy DC]

What is with all this faith in Wally Backman?

[TransMonk]

This is a bit off-topic, but I don't understand the appeal of Backman as a serious 2011 managerial candidate.

If anyone wants to give me the skinny on why there are big boners out there for him, I'd be mighty obliged.

On edit...Edgy read my mind...AGAIN!

[Benjamin Grimm]

Greener Grass Syndrome, I think.

I guess Wally might be better than Jerry, but he's not the one I'd choose as the next guy to sit on the Throne of Gil.

[metirish]

Edgy DC wrote: What is with all this faith in Wally Backman?

Good question , if not as manager maybe have him up in the radio booth after we get Hagin fired.I'm sure he'd be great there too.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Because a large part of being a manager is being a figurehead and representing the organization in a public sense, and Jerry for whatever his so-called faults isn't really embodying that role successfully while there's a feeling that Backman could and will.

I think some of that could rub off on the players by the way. I am certain these last 40 games has demonstrated to everyone in the clubhouse that Manuel isn't likely be the Met manager next season.

I also think some of the smartypantassers getting on Backman for his tendencies while managing 19 year olds and projecting the same in the big leagues are wasting at least a little energy.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Because a large part of being a manager is being a figurehead and representing the organization in a public sense, and Jerry for whatever his so-called faults isn't really embodying that role successfully while there's a feeling that Backman could and will. I think some of that could rub off on the players by the way. I am certain these last 40 games has demonstrated to everyone in the clubhouse that Manuel isn't likely be the Met manager next season. I also think some of the smartypantassers getting on Backman for his tendencies while managing 19 year olds and projecting the same in the big leagues are wasting at least a little energy.

You never know for sure how a guy's gonna manage until he actually does. part of it's grass is greener, anybody would be better than Manuel including willie, art howe, etc, but the other part is the attitude that people liked in Backman, the connection to winning, etc. I'm not sure how much value that has, but probably more so in a manager than in a backup middle infielder.

Maybe it's that the players haven't really seemed to be accountable. That they often play sloppy and unprepared and that these are traits people associate with Backman? (I don't know, I wasn't even double digits in age when he was a Met)

[Guest Edgy DC]

OK (1) it's hard to take "anybody would be better" seriously.

(2) I think Manuel had been a happy representative of the team and the brand, but with the squad struggling and the fans revolting that becomes a tougher and tougher show to sell, because nobody's buying and the summer re-runs get old.

I don't know who the smartypantsers are and what they're doing. I loved Backman and wore his number as a teenager, but I've come to recognize putting real stock in my teenage illusions as projecting. (It actually made me a worse player when I tried to emulate his game.)

[Benjamin Grimm]

Wally was "scrappy." (That's the adjective that was most used in describing him as a player.)

He was a small-ball type of player, and he thrived under Davey Johnson, who wasn't a small-ball type of manager. But would Wally be a small-ball manager in the big leagues? I don't know that managers manage as if their team was composed of 25 clones of themselves. (Certainly, the good ones don't.) So I have no idea really what kind of approach Wally would take if he took over the Mets.

My main hesitation about him is that I think he's nuts. Sure, a lot of fans like nutty managers for their entertainment value, but that's not really the kind of guy I'd like to see.

[TransMonk]

Well, I liked Backman as a player and he has had some success managing low level minor league teams.

On the other hand, and this may speak to JCL's comment of waste, but he comes off to me less of an even-keeled tactical leader and more of a "dumb jock" loud mouth (NTTA necessarily WWT). From my limited views of him in his post-playing career, I think he would make a better NCAA linbacker coach than a MLB manager.

The grass may be greener, but I think there are acres and acres to explore before settling on Backman's patch.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

copied from another thread:

Someone linked an article suggesting hiring Backman would be a mistake based on how often he bunted with the Cyclones as if all else would be the same. I feel like I'm only pointing out the very obvious -- that first-year players may very well require a different approach than big-leaguers.

I was answering the question of why there's popular acclaim for Backman: Because he's popular, and for better or worse there's a feeling the Mets could use a leader who's popular.

[Centerfield]

Fuck Backman. And Melvin and whoever else they may consider.

Go get Bobby Valentine.

[metirish]

Can we get a poll on this?

[HahnSolo]

Davey looked pretty damn good and rested the other day.

[TransMonk]

Centerfield wrote: Go get Bobby Valentine.

Agreed, I have to believe Bobby V would be as or even more popular than Backman. If Bobby wants more control (asst or co-GM), I say give it to him...what's the harm in trying things that way to see if his way works or not?

[Benjamin Grimm]

HahnSolo wrote: Davey looked pretty damn good and rested the other day.

I'd be as happy to get Davey back as I would Bobby.

[Ceetar]

TransMonk wrote: The grass may be greener, but I think there are acres and acres to explore before settling on Backman's patch.

Definitely this. They should interview everyone who's managed so much as a little league team. They should do a similiar thing with the pitching and hitting coach, although letting the manager in on that decision making process. If they like Backman and what he brings to the table, then fine. If not, that's fine too. What about Tuefel?

I do find it hard to believe anyone could actually be worse than Manuel, without trying.

I dont think Davey is looking to be a fulltime manager anymore.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Centerfield wrote: Fuck Backman. And Melvin and whoever else they may consider. Go get Bobby Valentine.

As sorry as I might be to be uncreative and pie-in-the-sky-ish, I concur.

The report that he opted out of consideration in Florida --- if there's any truth to it --- could play into the Mets' hands. Because the Mets, in granting Valentine broader control over roster management, could find themselves a compromise position between axing their GM and continuing on with him. And Valentine, as an old and respected colleague of of Minaya's, might be the only figure to whom Omar might grant some of his duties while publickly maintaining enough dignity to continue.

Could you imagine the emotional turnabout in Metsylvania? It mightn't last a week if the team still scuffles at the plate, but stills.

I do find it hard to believe anyone could actually be worse than Manuel, without trying.

They can.

[Guest themetfairy]

I want Bobby.

[metirish]

I'd love to have Bobby back , i fear the Cubs will move for him.

[MFS62]

The debacle on Mets HOF induction day showed that just because they bring back popular figures from 1986, it doesn't guarantee success.
We liked the 'tude of that team, and Backman was a prime example. But I'm not sure how being a member of that team translates to the players on the current squad.

I'd prefer to look at Wally's managing style, situational moves and decisions.
In a game last week, he had a high draft choice, who is being looked on as a future power hitter (a catcher, his name escapes me) bunt in the third inning. This is the kind of stuff that Jerry has been doing all year.
Of course, later in the same game, the kid hit his first professional home run. So maybe Wally used it as motivation.
If so, maybe there is something there that shows how well he knows his players and can motivate them.

In any event, IMO he is certainly on the list of future candidates.

Later

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

What was the issue with Wally in Arizona, that he had the legal issues, or that he didn't tell the team about the legal issues?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'd prefer to look at Wally's managing style, situational moves and decisions. In a game last week, he had a high draft choice, who is being looked on as a future power hitter (a catcher, his name escapes me) bunt in the third inning. This is the kind of stuff that Jerry has been doing all year.

This is exactly the trap the smartypantsers are falling into as mentioned above. Jesus H., 95% of the guys in the NYP aren;t going to be big leaguers, but the 5% with any shot are going to have to know how to bunt when they get there. Would you really prefer the Mets develop ballplayers who can't bunt in the service of their managers demonstrating they can impress the We-know-who-should-manage-the-Mets-next crowd?

Yes, Wally's issues were causing the Dbaggs embarrassment by not disclosing his legal troubles (not that the Dbags looked good for failing to uncover what a reporter in a single afternoon could).

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy DC wrote: What is with all this faith in Wally Backman?

We know what it is with most Met fans,
- he's an 86'er and therefore a "winner".
- he's "gritty" and therefore better than the laid-back trio of Manual, Howe & Randolph.
- he's a Met and therefore better than guys who were brought in from outside and aren't Mets

and, because Jerry is at this point being blamed for every decision he makes, doesn't make, considers making, or doesn't make when we think it should be made, his theoretical replacement will do all those things correctly for the same reason the backup quarterback wouldn't have thrown that interception.

[metirish]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: This is exactly the trap the smartypantsers are falling into as mentioned above. Jesus H., 95% of the guys in the NYP aren;t going to be big leaguers,

"Wha???"

[soupcan]

Edgy DC wrote: What is with all this faith in Wally Backman?

Not that he would be my first choice but my 'faith' comes from the fact that he seems to be the organization's pick. So I resign myself to going with him and putting Bobby V. in the front office so B.V. can 1) come downstairs in an emergency and 2) be kept away from other clubs.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't think he's the organization's pick in any sense other than the notion that his name could be tonic distributed to a grouchy fan base demanding appeasement. The organizations has invested much more equity in Ken Oberkfell (and more in Bob Melvin as well), and only hired Backman reluctantly and carefully in the face of a media campaign that the previous year had insinuated the team was weak (and some combination of insentitive to PR and oversensitive to PR) for not hiring him.

Even after tapping him this offseason, the plan was to put him in Bingo, before the team reconsidered and assigned him to Brooklyn.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'd prefer to look at Wally's managing style, situational moves and decisions. In a game last week, he had a high draft choice, who is being looked on as a future power hitter (a catcher, his name escapes me) bunt in the third inning. This is the kind of stuff that Jerry has been doing all year. This is exactly the trap the smartypantsers are falling into as mentioned above. Jesus H., 95% of the guys in the NYP aren't going to be big leaguers, but the 5% with any shot are going to have to know how to bunt when they get there. Would you really prefer the Mets develop ballplayers who can't bunt in the service of their managers demonstrating they can impress the We-know-who-should-manage-the-Mets-next crowd?

I think there may be something to the criticism, since the style of play does match up neatly with his style for 12 years as a ballplayer; that said, it's a great point: managerial aims are different in the low-to-mid-minors, and managerial styles have to be, as well.

Yes, Wally's issues were causing the Dbaggs embarrassment by not disclosing his legal troubles (not that the Dbags looked good for failing to uncover what a reporter in a single afternoon could).

More and more, this sort of stuff concerns me. Between this and the almost scary tirades on-field... he does strike me as more than a little nuts. It's possible that the reason so many major-leaguers who played for him give him such glowing reviews is that he's a great person to learn and move on from, rather than to play for, right? Generally speaking, people may love their 9th-grade history teacher, but how many would want to work for him/her for a decade?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Harrelson
Torborg
Green
Valentine
Howe
Randolph
Manuel

That run of managerial picks is too fugly to instill any confidence in the prospective manager that will replace Jerry. Bobby V. is such an outlier that the Mets probably blundered into hiring him. What's more telling, to me anyway, is the intolerable atmosphere of treachery and distrust that Valentine had to manage within, and that he was fired practically seconds after Wilpon acquired full ownership of the team. I suspect that the Wilpons are awful intermeddlers who are discrete enough to keep their bullshit out of the press. I know that there have been reports in the press about very successful GM's, albeit anonymously and through unnamed sources, who wouldn't consider working for the Mets under this ownership, and wonder if the same applies to managers.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I know. We should all kill ourselves.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: anybody would be better than Manuel including willie, art howe, etc,

i doubt that, being that Jerry's been doing for about half a season, what Willie did for three and a half years. And Willie did it worse than Jerry did. So there.

But Jerry's gonna get fired someday. Everybody gets fired. When that day comes, will you have anything left to write about?