Jeff Francoeur

[Centerfield]

Obviously it would be ideal if we could give Murphy time in Buffalo, but Castillo is injured now.

If you guys were the manager and your job was in jeopardy, would you really go with Alex Cora? I don't know.

[Guest attgig]

Centerfield wrote: Obviously it would be ideal if we could give Murphy time in Buffalo, but Castillo is injured now. If you guys were the manager and your job was in jeopardy, would you really go with Alex Cora? I don't know.

alex cora vs a guy who's played 2b in the afl a couple years ago? yes. Do I bat Alex Cora 2nd in the order? hellz no.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy DC wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: Centerfield wrote: So, given the choice between Cora (bad offense, ok defense) and Murphy (ok offense, passable defense) I would go with Murphy. Replace "Alex Cora" and "Daniel Murphy" with "Brian Giles" and "Wally Backman" and you have the decision that Davey Johnson made in 1984. Davey always opted for offense over defense, and it generally worked out. I'd like to see Murphy play a lot of second base at Buffalo for a while, and see what we've got. I'm certain that (1) Brian Giles was better than Alex Cora, and (2) Wally Backman was markedly better than anything we can expect from Murphy any time soon.

But wasn't Grimm's point more about the relationship between Cora and Murphy (Giles is to Backman as Cora is to Murphy)? I'm a big fan of offense over defense, too. I'm still mourning the trade of Mora to the O's. Even before the trade, Mora was already showing 20+ HR power if given regular playing time. I'd bet that Davey would've lobbied to trade Rey instead of Mora. Twenty HR's from a SS in one season is nothing to sneeze at.

But back to Murphy, Pete Rose got to play second base (along with almost every other position). And he sucked in the field. So there's that. And rate-wise offensively, Murph's first two seasons combined are better than Rose's first two seasons --- and this comparison necessarily includes Rose's rookie of the year campaign. I wouldn't bet on Murphy banging out 3,500 more hits going forward, though

Edited May 24, 2010 by Guest

[Gwreck]

Centerfield wrote: Obviously it would be ideal if we could give Murphy time in Buffalo, but Castillo is injured now. If you guys were the manager and your job was in jeopardy, would you really go with Alex Cora? I don't know.

I think we can sustain one guy who is in the lineup primarily for defense, not 2. With no Castillo, there needs to be an upgrade at either 2B or RF. Cora + Francoeur every day is unworkable. If he wanted to put Carter in RF and keep Cora at 2B, that might be ok.

[ashie62]

Why not let Murphy play second this season. It could have quite the upside.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Because it could fail spectacularly, damaging both player and team.

Nobody's been a bigger advocate for him at second than I have. I don't know how the zeitgeist has suddenly moved past me and I'm the wet blanket.

[Valadius]

Seriously, what the hell does Val Pascucci have to do to sniff the majors?

[ashie62]

Edgy DC wrote: Because it could fail spectacularly, damaging both player and team. Nobody's been a bigger advocate for him at second than I have. I don't know how the zeitgeist has suddenly moved past me and I'm the wet blanket.

I like the risk/reward. It could solidify the position for some time

[Guest Edgy DC]

He was pretty bad last year and very bad so far this year.

His excellent play in 2008 for Norfolk was following some terrible play for Lehigh.

He's got some thunder but also some rain.

Fernando Tatis, who had 100 times the big-league resume that Pascucci has, still had to play well for a year and a third at AAA before the Mets gave him another shot.

[nymr83]

Seriously, what the hell does Val Pascucci have to do to sniff the majors?

"Play well" would be an obvious place to start as he is batting .167 for Buffalo so far after hitting .248/.348/.445 in the hitter-friendly PCL last year.
What ever chances he may have deserved in the past have nothing to do with now

who would you suggest Pascucci replace on this roster? Certainly not Ike Davis. Chris Carter was out playing him by a wide margin this year, and did so last year in AAA as well (and in the tougher on hitters of the two AAA leagues). he cant replace GMJ (and if GMJ was to be replaced there are better candidates), and i don't think tatis would be a good idea as that leaves Cora the only backup at three infield positions (where tatis can at least play 3rd), besides tatis might not be great but he hasnt done anything to deserve to be cut right now.

[Ceetar]

Nymr83 wrote: Seriously, what the hell does Val Pascucci have to do to sniff the majors? "Play well" would be an obvious place to start as he is batting .167 for Buffalo so far after hitting .248/.348/.445 in the hitter-friendly PCL last year. What ever chances he may have deserved in the past have nothing to do with now who would you suggest Pascucci replace on this roster? Certainly not Ike Davis. Chris Carter was out playing him by a wide margin this year, and did so last year in AAA as well (and in the tougher on hitters of the two AAA leagues). he cant replace GMJ (and if GMJ was to be replaced there are better candidates), and i don't think tatis would be a good idea as that leaves Cora the only backup at three infield positions (where tatis can at least play 3rd), besides tatis might not be great but he hasnt done anything to deserve to be cut right now.

How many backups do you need at any position? even catcher you really only have 1 backup. Murphy for instance, certainly has as much ability to play 2B or 3B or 1B as Tatis does. I'd say better as he's younger and seems to have more range. and is a better hitter with at least as much power.

Tatis hasn't done anything to deserve being cut, no, but sometimes you get cut because there are just better players than you too.

Not that I'm advocating Pascucci, as there are other guys I'd given a shot to, even if they're probably crap. I'd still promote a guy like Jesus Feliciano while he's hot. Ride the hot hand..maybe he gives you a good week. I would've had Nick Evans or Jason Pridie up here pretty fast when I realized Gary Matthews was complete crap.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Ceetar wrote: How many backups do you need at any position? even catcher you really only have 1 backup. Murphy for instance, certainly has as much ability to play 2B or 3B or 1B as Tatis does. I'd say better as he's younger and seems to have more range. and is a better hitter with at least as much power. Tatis hasn't done anything to deserve being cut, no, but sometimes you get cut because there are just better players than you too.

Tatis hasn't been playing poorly... he hasn't been playing, period. Two weeks in single-A notwithstanding, neither has Murphy.

I'd like for Murphy to do what you're suggesting he's done. But he hasn't done any of it, yet-- hell, he hasn't even mastered an upper level for a year in the minors. So I won't consider him a better player than Tatis-- much less advocate cutting Tatis in his favor-- until he, y'know, plays better than him for a bit.

But anyway, back to Francoeur... yeah, though he probably won't, Manuel needs to try something else. Because this isn't working, and though he's probably the best defensive option there of the guys who aren't starting yet, he's no Endy. And Endy wouldn't start if he were here and OPSing .635 for over a month.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: How many backups do you need at any position?

One would be nice? Are we still talking about Pascucci?

Murphy for instance, certainly has as much ability to play 2B or 3B or 1B as Tatis does. I'd say better as he's younger and seems to have more range. and is a better hitter with at least as much power.

Based on what?

Tatis hasn't done anything to deserve being cut, no, but sometimes you get cut because there are just better players than you too.

Or that you hope you have better players, it would seem.

[Ceetar]

Tatis hasn't done anything to deserve being cut, no, but sometimes you get cut because there are just better players than you too.

Or that you hope you have better players, it would seem.

[Frayed Knot]

how many backups do you need at any position?

Bobby V used to talk about wanting to be "three deep" at each position.
Not that there'd be three guys sitting around waiting for #s 1 + 2 to get hurt or that there'd necessarily be three guys that you'd WANT to put at each spot - but just the idea that you maintained a kind of depth chart (even if just in your head) to where each spot would be covered during those wacky games or because of in-game injuries. And, obviously, the size of the roster dictates that there's a lot of overlap. Tatis, for instance, would be the #3 guy at several positions on this team. Murphy, hopefully, could be the same.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Edgy DC wrote: Murphy for instance, certainly has as much ability to play 2B or 3B or 1B as Tatis does. I'd say better as he's younger and seems to have more range. and is a better hitter with at least as much power. Based on what?

I'd really like an answer to this.

This thread is rapidly spinning out of control. Suffice to say, I really think three proposals above --- making Murphy the starting secondbaseman forthwith; releasing Tatis to clear roster room for Murphy; and promoting Val Pascucci --- seem desperate and self-evidently counter-productive, and I don't know where they are coming from.

I think Valentine went four-deep at every position.

[Centerfield]

Edgy DC wrote: Suffice to say, I really think three proposals above --- making Murphy the starting secondbaseman forthwith; releasing Tatis to clear roster room for Murphy; and promoting Val Pascucci --- seem desperate and self-evidently counter-productive, and I don't know where they are coming from.

I will let you continue your arguments on points 2 and 3 with those proposing them (I am not), but I don't think you can call naming Murphy the starting second baseman "desperate and self-evidently counterproductive". Unless we have evidence that Murphy is horrid at second base, the most we can say is that it's an unknown.

We do know that Murphy is a much better hitter than Cora. He gets on base more, he hits for more power. Overall, it's a difference of over 100 points in OPS. Plus, Murphy is much more likely to improve on his career numbers than Cora.

We can assume that Alex is a better fielding second baseman than Murphy, but by how much? Enough to offset 100 points of OPS? How can you know until you try? First base is a much tougher position than leftfield. I would never have guessed Murphy would be passable based on what I saw from him in the outfield, but he handled himself surprisingly well.

You argue that the move could fail spectacularly, damaging the player and the team. How would it damage the player? If he sucks, just don't put him there anymore. Sure, it could damage the team if he's terrible, but this team is in last place as it is. You can't drop any lower than that. This team's OPS is 13 out of 16 in the NL. Simply stated, it is not going to win a thing unless something changes and they find more offense.

Every move has potential risk. I just don't see why a last place team would stick with something that is obviously not working and not try something that might help.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'll start here.

How can you know until you try?

By first getting him some work in the minors where he can be observed at the position. The guy is coming off a leg injury to boot.

First base is a much tougher position than leftfield.

I think that's debateable in general, but certainly so for a guy who had played mostly third throughout his minor league career and some first.

I would never have guessed Murphy would be passable based on what I saw from him in the outfield, but he handled himself surprisingly well.

Sure, based on what you sure in the outfield, but based on him having historically been an infielder, not so much. Virtually everybody transitions smoothly from third to first.

As for Davey Johnson, it's improtant to remember that, yeah, he started Kevin Mitchell at shortstop --- but once every three-four weeks.

[MFS62]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I'm still mourning the trade of Mora to the O's. Even before the trade, Mora was already showing 20+ HR power if given regular playing time. I'd bet that Davey would've lobbied to trade Rey instead of Mora. Twenty HR's from a SS in one season is nothing to sneeze at.

You don't have to go that far back to find a should'/coulda' deal that involved trading an infielder who could hit for one with better defense. what about Ty Wiggington, who has turned into sort of a poor man's Dan Uggla, for Jeff Keppinger?
Hey, IMO, Jeff Keppinger would even be better than Cora.

Later

[Centerfield]

Edgy DC wrote: I'll start here. How can you know until you try? By first getting him some work in the minors where he can be observed at the position. The guy is coming off a leg injury to boot.

I guess this, in a nutshell, is where we disagree. Right now, Castillo is hurt and Murphy is healthy. I say you try him out at the majors and get the benefit of his 100 points of OPS over Cora during this stage. You'd rather go with Cora. I think reasonable arguments can be made for both sides. I don't think the proposal is desperate at all. And certainly not self-evident.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, we're assuming that he's healthy, but hat may be a relative thing. He's had two months off and it's hard enough to hit the ground running under those circumstances.

And I don't really want Cora. I accept that some combination of Cora, Tatis, Tejada, and Adams may be the best current solution. And if he's not being disabled, I assume Castillo will be available shortly, and this will be moot.

At any rate, Murphy's been assigned to Buff. We'll see where he plays. He didn't play for them last night.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

How about Tatis everyday in right with some Carter mixed in? Tatis has been league average-ish on defense in the outfield and is a better hitter than Jeff Francoeur.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Wait a minute. We're talking about what to do about Francoeur now? The name of this thread is...

Oh yeah, right.

[Guest attgig]

If you're playing a Tatis/Carter platoon, cut frenchy? frenchy off the bench? seems like keeping him on the bench is solely for defensive purposes? seems like we can do better than Frenchy in the open market for a defensive replacement, no?

Sure, he may have an arm, but does he really do anything else?

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

attgig wrote: If you're playing a Tatis/Carter platoon, cut frenchy? frenchy off the bench? seems like keeping him on the bench is solely for defensive purposes? seems like we can do better than Frenchy in the open market for a defensive replacement, no? Sure, he may have an arm, but does he really do anything else?

Francoeur has a career .345 wOBA vs left-handed pitchers. That's good enough, I think, to be a useful pinch hitter.

[Guest attgig]

Vince Coleman Firecracker wrote: attgig wrote: If you're playing a Tatis/Carter platoon, cut frenchy? frenchy off the bench? seems like keeping him on the bench is solely for defensive purposes? seems like we can do better than Frenchy in the open market for a defensive replacement, no? Sure, he may have an arm, but does he really do anything else? Francoeur has a career .345 wOBA vs left-handed pitchers. That's good enough, I think, to be a useful pinch hitter.

but not good enough to start RF over Tatis?
With Tatis as a bench guy, you at least get all the corner positions, and SS/2B as an emergency situation.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

attgig wrote: Vince Coleman Firecracker wrote: Francoeur has a career .345 wOBA vs left-handed pitchers. That's good enough, I think, to be a useful pinch hitter. but not good enough to start RF over Tatis? With Tatis as a bench guy, you at least get all the corner positions, and SS/2B as an emergency situation.

Well, yeah. Tatis has been a better hitter than Francoeur over the course of their careers, and isn't awful in the field. Francoeur shouldn't be starting, but he might still be useful as a pinch hitter against lefties. If you needed to move Tatis to any of those other positions, you don't need him to be on the bench. You could just hand him a different glove in between innings.

EDIT-Also, what about giving Jesus Feliciano a few games? He's been playing well for Buffalo and can't be much worse than Francoeur's been.

[Guest attgig]

or how about they stick hessman out in RF. he's doing even better....

[Centerfield]

Well since I started this tread, Francoeur has raised his OPS by more than 100 points and Murphy went down with a season-ending injury playing second base.

I should be fired.

[Guest attgig]

or you can start a thread about tatis, and maybe he'll bring his OPS up...