Beltran Running

[Benjamin Grimm]

Beltran has little trade value until he proves himself healthy and productive.

And until he does that, it seems foolish to trade anybody, especially Pagan, in order to make room for him. Imagine dealing Pagan and then having Beltran need to shut it down a week later, which is entirely possible.

I'm not sure who would be included in a deal for Oswalt or Lee, but since the third best major-league-ready center fielder in the Mets organization appears to be Jesus Feliciano, I would look to avoid having Pagan be included.

[Gwreck]

I was being sarcastic. Of course Beltran isn't going to be traded. The point was that he was being undervalued.

[smg58]

Pagan hits righties much better than lefties (.864/.677) , Francoeur hits lefties much better than righties (.887/.684). The decision regarding what to do when Beltran is ready to play is not a difficult one, and shouldn't be made into one. That doesn't mean I wouldn't strongly consider playing Beltran in right when Pagan plays as well. But he'd have to have played there during his rehab.

Beltran hit just fine in spite of his legs last year, and his bat is too valuable (i.e., too big of an upgrade over Francoeur against righties and Pagan against lefties) to even consider moving him this season. It's a fair subject for discussion over the offseason, but one thing at a time.

[Farmer Ted]

Fucking Snooze.

"His recovery has gone so slowly that people in the organization have privately questioned his intentions, wondering if Beltran was more concerned about being healthy in 2011, when he will be a season away from free agency, playing for a new contract."

[Guest Edgy DC]

The Mets have explicitly stated they intend to play him in center and center alone.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

smg58 wrote: Pagan hits righties much better than lefties (.864/.677) , Francoeur hits lefties much better than righties (.887/.684). The decision regarding what to do when Beltran is ready to play is not a difficult one, and shouldn't be made into one.

I am and have been of SMG's mind about this. But I would bet three fingers on my right hand that this won't be the way they end up going.

[batmagadanleadoff]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Pagan hits righties much better than lefties (.864/.677) , Francoeur hits lefties much better than righties (.887/.684). The decision regarding what to do when Beltran is ready to play is not a difficult one, and shouldn't be made into one. I am and have been of SMG's mind about this. But I would bet three fingers on my right hand that this won't be the way they end up going.

I am and have been of SMG and LWFS's minds.

Mitigating factor that might portend the right move: Jerry's willingness to at times, bat Francoeur eighth.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Tell me now baby, is he good to you?
Can he do to you the things I don't do?
Oh, I can take you higher
Oh, oh, oh, I'm on fire

AVG	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	TB	BB	SO	SB	CS	OBP	SLG	OPS
.556	3	9	1	5	2	0	0	2	7	2	0	0	0	.636	.778	1.414

[Ceetar]

He's playing 9 innings tonight. He's hitting. He really should be on a plane to Buffalo tomorrow for some rehab above A level. Not any more strenous in terms of easing him in, and the pitching quality is closer to the real thing.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Fangraphs' Pat Andriola takes a look at who sits when Beltran comes back and why, and winds up examining Angel Pagan and the myth of the "Fourth Outfielder" (distant cousin of the "This-Guy's-A-Major-League-Player/Minor-League-Player" issue):

There are sometimes things so obvious in baseball that we needn�t be reminded of them. One of these things is that Angel Pagan is better at baseball than Jeff Francoeur. Dave Cameron already wrote about Pagan�s awesomeness. With Beltran rehabbing, I wrote about the inevitable over a month ago, saying: �I think it�d be optimal for the Mets to bench Francoeur for good and put Carlos Beltran in right field. Beltran will be coming off serious knee issues and declined defensively last year. The Mets can mitigate his stress back in the outfield by putting him in right, leaving Pagan in center, and of course having Jason Bay in left field. Chris Carter and Jeff Francoeur can sit on the bench, and Gary Matthews Jr. can go home and buy really cool stuff with his tens of millions of dollars. Fortunately, the Mets did cut ties with Matthews, have played Chris Carter more, and have Beltran playing minor league games. So it�s the end of June, and here are where Jeff Francoeur and Angel Pagan stand for 2010: Angel Pagan: .302/.363/.443, .357 wOBA, 123 wRC+, 10.0 UZR/150, 2.5 WAR Jeff Francoeur: .270/.320/.425, .321 wOBA, 99 wRC+, -0.9 UZR/150, 0.7 WAR As I said earlier, this is not even close. But Joe Lapointe of The New York Times fills us in on what will actually happen when Beltran returns: The question is where Pagan will play when Beltran comes back. General Manager Omar Minaya and Manager Jerry Manuel maintained Tuesday that Beltran would return as a center fielder � there had been some speculation that he might move to right field, or left, to lessen the running he would have to do � and that the versatile Pagan would rotate through all three outfield positions, playing behind Beltran, left fielder Jason Bay and right fielder Jeff Francoeur. This, simply put, is downright insanity, and honestly insulting to Angel Pagan. There�s no crying in baseball, but excuse me if I may get a little emotional for this guy if what Lapointe says actually comes to fruition. At the least the Mets should platoon Francoeur and Pagan in right field, as Pagan hits lefties relatively poorly and the opposite is true of Francoeur. Just in case you were thinking that maybe Francoeur beats Pagan in traditional stats: Jeff Francoeur. : 74 games, .270 BA, 8 homers, 33 runs, 40 RBI, 7 stolen bases Angel Pagan: 69 games, .302 BA, 4 homers, 41 runs, 35 RBI, 14 stolen bases So it�s not the traditional stats. It�s not the advanced metrics. Then what is it? It firstly has to do with Jeff Francoeur, as Matt Cerrone of MetsBlog said: �yes, i know francouer is a �cool guy,� and he does grow one hell of a beard, and i know he looks you in the eye when he talks and he�s a great quote� i know this� i have talked to him on several occasions and he seems like a terrific person, and someone who it would be fun to hang out with� but, let�s not go crazy here�Francoeur is on pace to hit around .265 with a .320 OBP, 16 HR and 85 RBI this season. �that�s good, don�t get me wrong, and i love his defense and his arm and i don�t underestimate how much of an impact he has on the opposing team�s running game� i get it� but, i just don�t understand why his arm and potential 15 HR is enough to kick pagan to the bench� The Mets media has championed Francoeur while consistently chiding Angel Pagan for not having a solid �Baseball IQ� (that�s a whole other, scary-to-think-about issue). Francoeur is gritty. He makes funny faces and swings as if he�s trying harder than everyone else and reminds you of a quarterback from an SEC school in the 1960s. That�s one part of the equation holding Pagan back. The other is what I�d like to call the �Fourth Outfielder Fallacy.� This is the fallacy that just because a player can play all three outfield positions, he is best served as a fourth outfielder. Most of the time, said outfielder did come up as a bench player who rotated around the outfield positions, but after a good time of solid play, still couldn�t shed the title of �fourth outfielder.� Fans are human, and humans love consistency and purpose. Fourth outfielders make them comfortable. It also causes people to doubt whether or not a fourth outfielder could ever be a real starting outfielder, because, well, I don�t know if there�s a real logical reason as to why, but people still say it anyway. Angel Pagan may become the latest casualty of the Fourth Outfielder Fallacy. If so, we can only hope he�s the last.

[Frayed Knot]

It's obvious - assuming all are eventually healthy - that Pagan should play as much as possible when Beltran comes back. Where he plays is of little importance to me. The 'RF will be better for Carlos' argument is highly speculative at best, and even more so seeing as how the RF at Citi is hardly your usual small ground to cover field. IOW, rotating Angel among three different positions isn't the same as saying he's being confined to strictly backup duty and I don't think LaPointe's piece says he will or that Francoeur is destined to get preference. I mean, I like the approach that a lot of these independent sites take but there's also a certain arrogance among some of them where they simply assume themselves to be just so much smarter than ML front offices and are willing to twist things to "pre-prove" it. The "bad IQ" complaint they cite is out of date too.
Personally, I'm going to wait and see what happens before I panic.

On the same topic viewed from the other side, I caught about 5 minutes of Joe Benigno (for the first time in months and months) the other day when he and his partner had Darryl Strawberry as a guest.
Now you have to understand that Benigno worships Strawberry and despises Beltran (always has) so it killed him when Straw scoffed at Joe's notion which is that Beltran should be riding the pines in favor of Pagan and the others. "What do you mean what do you do when Beltran comes back?", Straw said, "you play him"!!. JB then tried playing the "but what about the chemistry" card and that's where Straw basically laughed at him.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: He's playing 9 innings tonight. He's hitting. He really should be on a plane to Buffalo tomorrow for some rehab above A level. Not any more strenous in terms of easing him in, and the pitching quality is closer to the real thing.

I imagine part of the reason for keeping in A-Ball is the better facilitites in St. Lucie.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

He's back July 15....

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5352226

[Ceetar]

The Second Spitter wrote: He's back July 15.... http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5352226

Eh, for one he _has_ to be back July 15th.

Rubin even notes in that article that Manuel contradicts himself every day, so hard to take this at his word anyway.

However, it's what I expected given the situation, and the schedule they've had him on. It'd be nice to have him for the Braves series though.

[Zvon]

.....so my wallpaper was both and premature and not premature.
These things only happen with mah Mets.

[Zvon]

Updated Beltran wallpaper.

One for before the break, one for after.

Now, I'm not superstitious,

BUT YOU ALL BETTER
STICK THIS STUFF IN A
PLACE THAT WILL PLEASE
THE GsOB (TBBUU&OT)!

http://zvonsworld.blogspot.com/p/wallpaper-1-beltran.html

[Guest Edgy DC]

Not to say that Ike Davis is an ideal cleanup man, but I'm a little uncomfortable about slotting Beltran into the fourth spot right away. Reyes already broke the lineup once (or twice!) coming back and hitting first (then third) while he still needed to shake a ton of rust off.

I'm think that maybe he should start in as the number six hitter and we'll see how things develop.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Not to say that Ike Davis is an ideal cleanup man, but I'm a little uncomfortable about slotting Beltran into the fourth spot right away. Reyes already broke the lineup once (or twice!) coming back and hitting first (then third) while he still needed to shake a ton of rust off. I'm think that maybe he should start in as the number six hitter and we'll see how things develop.

Well, there's the problem.

I don't understand why they didn't promote him to Buffalo for the weekend. at least semi real pitchers there. I also don't understand why he was in NY yesterday. Why fly up just for the day, or why is he not staying in St. Lucie for games the next three days? Isn't 4 days off likely to make him rustier?

Davis has a good game yesterday, but he's been slumping for a while. He needed to be dropped down, Beltran was coming back anyway..kinda works for me. I'm not expecting Beltran to smash it, but he has been swinging, unlike Reyes who was at best watching guys swing in movies like the Natural.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: I don't understand why they didn't promote him to Buffalo for the weekend. at least semi real pitchers there. I also don't understand why he was in NY yesterday. Why fly up just for the day, or why is he not staying in St. Lucie for games the next three days? Isn't 4 days off likely to make him rustier?

Are you actually concerned about stuff like this?

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ceetar wrote: I don't understand why they didn't promote him to Buffalo for the weekend. at least semi real pitchers there. I also don't understand why he was in NY yesterday. Why fly up just for the day, or why is he not staying in St. Lucie for games the next three days? Isn't 4 days off likely to make him rustier? Are you actually concerned about stuff like this?

not concerned, just curious. It doesn't seem like the best way to things.

I'm curious about the way they've lineup the rotation next week too.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: I don't understand why they didn't promote him to Buffalo for the weekend. at least semi real pitchers there. I also don't understand why he was in NY yesterday. Why fly up just for the day, or why is he not staying in St. Lucie for games the next three days? Isn't 4 days off likely to make him rustier? Are you actually concerned about stuff like this? not concerned, just curious. It doesn't seem like the best way to things.

How could a fan possibly know enough to say?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Sometimes, ya gotta defer to the Met eyeballs that have been scouting Beltran. Maybe he's ready. Francoeur batting sixth or Cora batting second bothers me a whole lot more than Beltran slotted for cleanup after the AS break.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, after the break, whether Beltran belongs at cleanup will mostly be the last of those three issues still on the table.

[Zvon]

Ceetar wrote: Davis has a good game yesterday, but he's been slumping for a while. He needed to be dropped down, Beltran was coming back anyway..kinda works for me.

Agreed #714.

Davis needs to adjust to the adjustments made on him.
He has been, but slowly. I have no problem with that.
I think he's the kind of guy that does everything slow, but ends up doing it to the best of his ability (fireman joke cocked and ready) cause it sticks.

Beltran 4?
I think we have to. Until someone else can clean up with power.
Wright can't do everything. Bay....what can I say?
Davis will work his way back up there, I hope, cause I really don't think Beltran is a cleanup hitter.
He can be, and he will be for a bit, but I don't think thats his best slot.
If no one else can smack longballs on a more consistent basis, right now, he's the best for that slot.

[Ceetar]

I've been thinking about this, and It's been my view that Beltran, when his timing isn't quite up to speed or he's slumping, walks a lot. Maybe it makes sense to bat him third, and Wright behind him?

[ashie62]

3-Wright 4-Beltran 5-Bay 6-Davis

everyday..

[TransMonk]

To San Francisco. I'm almost giddy...almost.

[Ceetar]

TransMonk wrote: To San Francisco. I'm almost giddy...almost.

You'll be giddy when he splashes one into the cove.

It's about time to retire this thread I suppose. Unless we're gonna get one for everyone. "Wright Swinging" "Reyes Dancing" "Perez Walking" "Frankie agitating"

[Benjamin Grimm]

Any word yet on who comes off the 25-man roster to open Beltran's spot? I'm guessing Nick Evans?

(I just checked the Mets active roster on mets.com, and see Chris Carter is listed as a Designated Hitter. Huh?)

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Any word yet on who comes off the 25-man roster to open Beltran's spot? I'm guessing Nick Evans? (I just checked the Mets active roster on mets.com, and see Chris Carter is listed as a Designated Hitter. Huh?)

yeah, given how Carter's been used for teh most part, that seems right. it's still stupid/weird though.

they already sent down Feliciano before the break.