Poll: Citi Field Outfield Fences

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I think they should just put up a fence; no major reconstruction required. Run a fence (and make it look like the one at Shea!) from left field to right field, however many feet in from the existing walls. The walls are so high that people in the seats would be able to see over the fence, and there would be no ambiguity about home runs. They'd either land in the seats or in the gap between the fence and the wall. And that gap would be a great spot for Joe Pignatano to grow tomatoes.

I hate that idea. I"m fine if they want to redesign things, but not in a simply "We want more power" way. If they create an outdoor Mo's zone by straightening the wall/seats there and having a standing area in front of the second. Then that's cool. Be fun to be there. If they want to create a similar patio type area in LF by extending the bottom 6 feet of the wall out some. More standing area is good, especially for when the Mets eventually make the playoffs and sell SRO and we start bitching again about the 44k capacity.

[dgwphotography]

A "we want more power" way? How about a "we want the building to be more fair like Shea" way?

[Ceetar]

dgwphotography wrote: A "we want more power" way? How about a "we want the building to be more fair like Shea" way?

I don't want the building to be more like Shea. In fact, I think some of these ways fans want the park to be more like Shea (such as blue walls) are a bad idea. Citi Field is Citi Field and Shea was Shea.

[dgwphotography]

I couldn't disagree more.

Citi Field is a dull, lifeless place, that is devoid of color.

Whenever I see a Mets classic on SNY, I'm struck by how much more colorful Shea was...

[metsmarathon]

if they wanted to move the fences, i would do almost exactly this. i'd actually prefer a shea-like arc in left field, but it's exactly my thoughts on the right field spot.



maybe i should just email the hittracker guy my query on jason bay and david wright, and the effect the citi field walls would have had on their 2009 and 2008 home runs, respectively, in an attempt to finally nail down just how much they should have expected teh walls to affect their home run totals, and the extend to which tehy should have attempted to modify their respective approaches.

as we can see, neither changed for the better, though wright seems to have undone much of what he screwed up.

[Ceetar]

dgwphotography wrote: I couldn't disagree more. Citi Field is a dull, lifeless place, that is devoid of color. Whenever I see a Mets classic on SNY, I'm struck by how much more colorful Shea was...

I don't find Citi Field dull and lifeless, and I love the place, but it's far from perfect. (which is subjective obviously)

the colored seats/wall was a Shea thing. We took the orange foul poles and the apple. that's enough. I'm not against Citi Field developing it's own quirks/color though. I like the kitchy stuff the franchise has done. I miss the neon players.

for instance, i think it'd be cool if they reinacted the Buckner play similar to this:

NOY1Sg5LuIo

Also from Coors, there's the mile high line in the upper deck painted purple. I think it'd be fun to mimic that at Citi, painting an entire row of seats around the stadium orange. Doesn't ahve to mean anything. Or you could put it at the height of Agee's Shea home run. or you could wait until if/when a Mets player homers to the upper deck. Or just start painting the seats orange that Mets hit with home runs. make the outfield seats look rather speculed, but it'd be fun.

[batmagadanleadoff]

With David Wright and Lucas Duda each hitting balls tonoght that would'be been HR's in practically any other park in baseball (Wright's blast had the distance but probably not the height to clear Fenway's Green Monster), I thought I'd update the HR tallies for Met games in the Citi Field era.

2011

Total HR's hit at Citi Field (Mets and Mets' opponents) - 72 HR's/51 games (1.41 per game)
Total HR's hit; all Mets road games (Mets and Mets' opponents) - 110 HR's/60 games (1.83 per game)

2009-2011

Total HR's hit at Citi Field (Mets and Mets' opponents) - 312 HR's/213 games (1.46 per game)
Total HR's hit; all Mets road games (Mets and Mets' opponents) - 386 HR's/222 games (1.74 per game)

[ashie62]

No shock there. Enough of a sample size to call it a trend.

Please bring in right center. It might help to keep Sugarpants.

[batmagadanleadoff]

With David Wright and Lucas Duda each hitting balls tonoght that would'be been HR's in practically any other park in baseball (Wright's blast had the distance but probably not the height to clear Fenway's Green Monster), I thought I'd update the HR tallies ....

David Wright's scorching drive in the first inning Friday night struck halfway up that infernal left-field wall at Citi Field for a one-run double instead of a two-run homer, just as Chipper Jones knew it would. "It's funny to see them hit the ball off the wall and look at me like, 'God-damned, what do I got to do?'" Jones said Friday, before that 16-foot wall and Tim Hudson doomed the Mets to a 4-1 defeat, their fifth in a row. It's not lost on Jones that the Mets are struggling to contend in the NL East, while his Braves emerged from their franchise slump and will likely make the playoffs for a second straight year. Both Jones and Terry Collins share the opinion that the Mets' lousy home record might be the result of those imposing walls, plus the absence of a jet stream out to right-center, which sometimes carried Jones' balls out of Shea. Citi Field is both modestly scaled and impossibly dimensioned, an architectural paradox. "I've played here long enough to know that's not a home run," Wright said of his double. There was another blast in the seventh last night by Lucas Duda, a homer elsewhere, which died at the warning track in right. Will the Mets ever do something about this? Not Jones' problem, really. He dragged his sore quad and surgically repaired knee one more time into Flushing, and the new place was something of an unpleasant reminder about how the romance and aura of the venue had flown.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2011/08/06/2011-08-06_ask_chipper_citi_is_no_day_at_park.html?r=topnews

"Citi Field is a lot bigger than Shea; it doesn't affect me as much as it affects Wright and [Jason] Bay and those guys," said Jones, who will return to Atlanta's starting lineup tonight following knee and quad injuries. "At Shea there was a jet stream out to right-center. I've seen David tattoo balls here that sometimes get caught that would have been home runs at Shea. It's funny to see those guys lace a ball off the wall and get to second base and look at me, like 'Damn!' It can be frustrating." And so it was in the first inning last night, as Wright blasted a long double off the wall in left-center to drive in the Mets' only run. Wright crushed the pitch from Tim Hudson, but had no hope of clearing the fence. "I've played here long enough to know that's not a home run here," said Wright, a hint of dejection in his voice. "You better swallow your pride when you walk into this park," said Jones, who added he has no plans to retire, "and try to hit the ball into the gaps and concentrate on being a .300 hitter instead of a 30-home run guy." Added Wright, "It's a big park, there's no sense whining about it." Just another Mets challenge.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/nemesis_offers_up_amazin_advice_Kv5xXM9MSsjyJEE32R0rKP#ixzz1UGGRybXM

[Ceetar]

perhaps the 'hint of dejection' was because the Mets lost.

One game (what's that now, 11-10 since the break) does not break the Braves' "franchise slump" (or is he referring to the drought from '06-'09 of not making the playoffs?)


whine whine whine. Are we ever going to stop tracking every fly ball (while mostly ignoring how many deep fly balls guys like Izzy and Capuano have given up to the same parts) and complain it would've been a home run in Philly?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: perhaps the 'hint of dejection' was because the Mets lost.

Perhaps. Or perhaps Wright was dejected because it's unlikely that the Mets'll clinch 1st place on September 25. He might've been dejected because he had too much sugar in his pants. Or too many boogers up his nose. Sugars or boogers? It could be anything, really. Or whatever you want it to be, especially if you ignore the obvious meaning.

Ceetar wrote: whine whine whine. Are we ever going to stop tracking every fly ball (while mostly ignoring how many deep fly balls guys like Izzy and Capuano have given up to the same parts) and complain it would've been a home run in Philly?

I agree. It makes no difference whether the center field wall is in front of second base or in Ohio. Just like it doesn't matter what a team pays a productive player. If the player's an asset, then ther's no limit to what that player deserves money-wise. We should really ignore everything because nothing really matters. To me. Anyway the wind blows.

[metirish]

Bradley: For Mets, moving in Citi Field fences is a good place to start

By Jeff Bradley/Star-Ledger Columnist

NEW YORK � Consider it just another part of the reconstruction of the Mets. Along with tightening the franchise�s payroll, expect Citi Field�s dimensions to shrink in 2012. According to a high-ranking Mets official, �It�s pretty certain� some alterations will be made to the three-year old ballpark�s outfield dimensions next season. And while it will look like a reaction to the Mets� abysmal home record this season (25-34), that�s just one piece of the puzzle. The Mets are looking big-picture here. As they rebuild their roster for next season and beyond, they know how difficult it will be to attract run producers to play 81 games in a park that�s gained the reputation as hitter-unfriendly. �It�s very difficult to play here if you�re an offensive player,� Terry Collins admitted today, before the Mets lost, 11-9, to the Milwaukee Brewers. �Especially if you�re a guy who�s supposed to be driving in runs. It�s a tough place to play. If there are some adjustments made, I think that would help. I think it would certainly help to get some of our guys to relax. I�m not denying it won�t. I think the park gets in the mind of hitters.� Among the changes, expect to see the left-field wall, which is nearly 16 feet tall, to be lowered. General manager Sandy Alderson, while not definitively stating changes would be made, said earlier this week there are nips and tucks that can be made to the 2.5 acre field that would not require any major structural changes to the ballpark. Of course, that would be in keeping with the tight budget the organization is working with. It would not be the first time a ballpark was adjusted. In 2003, for example, the Detroit Tigers decided to move in the fences at Comerica Park after three seasons that frustrated their long-ball hitters. David Wright, who along with Jason Bay has been the Mets� hitter most adversely affected by Citi Field�s dimensions, said, �It�s frustrating when you hit a ball good and it doesn�t go anywhere. That�s not just here, but also in San Diego and the other pitcher�s parks. Of course, I�d like to see a place where you hit a ball good, you square a ball up, you�re rewarded for it. Obviously, that�s not the case here.� This season, Citi Field ranks 24th of the 30 major-league parks in home runs yielded. The Mets have failed to hit a home run in 34 of their 59 home games and have just a dozen multi-home run games at home this season. It�s not an impossible place to hit home runs, as evidenced by the four homers the Mets and Brewers combined to hit today, including a monster shot by Angel Pagan that gave the Mets a 9-7 lead in the eighth. But if a 30-home run season is the benchmark for a power hitter, consider since the Mets moved into Citi Field in 2009 they�ve yet to have a player reach that mark. That�s why there�s rampant speculation that sluggers won�t want to sign with the Mets. Wright, who has hit 22 home runs in 639 career at-bats at Citi Field, said it�s not so much the distances down the lines (335 feet to left, 300 to right), but the deep power alleys and high fences that make it such a difficult home run park. �I�ve never been one to lobby for anything,� Wright said, �But I�m a hitter and, of course, I�d prefer a hitter�s park over a pitcher�s park. Everyone knows this place plays big. I guess I�d love to pitch here.� Creating the right balance between pitcher-friendly and hitter-friendly is what the Mets will seek before officially changing the dimensions. Alderson and the front office also have to operate with the knowledge that next year�s Mets roster could look radically different than what�s taking the field right now. And, of course, you don�t adjust the fences specifically for one set of players. You have to have an organizational game plan. �It�s a difficult question because we pitch here, too,� said Collins. �Our struggles at home this year are not because of the size of the ballpark. I still think if you use the field for what it is, and try to take good swings, take base hits and doubles and possibly triples, you can still put up decent some decent numbers here. I really believe that.� Indeed, if the Mets were on their way to National League East title or NL wild card, doing it with pitching, defense and speed, it�s doubtful anyone would be thinking of changing the dimensions of Citi Field. But with the team in all likelihood headed to its third sub-.500 record since moving to Citi Field, it�s a lot easier to switch. �You can say you�re going to pitch, run and catch it, that�s great,� said Collins, �But you still have to score runs. There�s got to be a place for the power hitter. We have a tough time catching up because we can�t hit the ball out of the ballpark, especially here.� The Mets have a lot of catching up to do.

[Edgy MD]

They have a winning percentage .106 lower at home than on the road.

Of course, last year their home winning percentage was .185 better.

Maybe it's just a thing.

[G-Fafif]

What the left field fence needs is a Bay window.

[ashie62]

The dimensions are as arbitrary as a minature golf course.

Bring the fucking fence down and bring in right. It's the Wright thing to do. Just do it.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Bradley: For Mets, moving in Citi Field fences is a good place to start By Jeff Bradley/Star-Ledger Columnist David Wright, who along with Jason Bay has been the Mets� hitter most adversely affected by Citi Field�s dimensions, said, �It�s frustrating when you hit a ball good and it doesn�t go anywhere. That�s not just here, but also in San Diego and the other pitcher�s parks. Of course, I�d like to see a place where you hit a ball good, you square a ball up, you�re rewarded for it. Obviously, that�s not the case here.... Wright, who has hit 22 home runs in 639 career at-bats at Citi Field, said it�s not so much the distances down the lines (335 feet to left, 300 to right), but the deep power alleys and high fences that make it such a difficult home run park. �I�ve never been one to lobby for anything,� Wright said, �But I�m a hitter and, of course, I�d prefer a hitter�s park over a pitcher�s park. Everyone knows this place plays big. I guess I�d love to pitch here.�

David Wright swears that he never lobbies for anything right before lobbying for something. If this is what he says in public about Citi Field's dimensions, I could only imagine the gripes and whines he privately told Frenchy Francoeur over the last two seasons. (And rightfully so).

[G-Fafif]

David Wright, who along with Jason Bay has been the Mets� hitter most adversely affected by Citi Field�s dimensions, said, �It�s frustrating when you hit a ball good and it doesn�t go anywhere. That�s not just here, but also in San Diego and the other pitcher�s parks. Of course, I�d like to see a place where you hit a ball good, you square a ball up, you�re rewarded for it. Obviously, that�s not the case here.... Wright, who has hit 22 home runs in 639 career at-bats at Citi Field, said it�s not so much the distances down the lines (335 feet to left, 300 to right), but the deep power alleys and high fences that make it such a difficult home run park. �I�ve never been one to lobby for anything,� Wright said, �But I�m a hitter and, of course, I�d prefer a hitter�s park over a pitcher�s park. Everyone knows this place plays big. I guess I�d love to pitch here.�

1) It's frustrating when David Wright doesn't hit a ball well -- or says he hits a ball good instead of well.

2) At this rate, I wouldn't mind David Wright pitching here. He almost pitched in an All-Star Game.

[Edgy MD]

Ashie62 wrote: The dimensions are as arbitrary as a minature golf course. Bring the fucking fence down and bring in right. It's the Wright thing to do. Just do it.

They're all arbitrary. Bringing them down and closer in right would be arbitrary. Arguably moreso.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Okay, but one's gratuitous and arbitrary, whereas the other would presumably be purposeful.

Wright stats, no Wright stats... it's all the same to me (after all, why would you design a new park's strengths specifically around those of your CURRENT best hitter, when the park will presumably be there long after he's gone).

I just want to see some human-robbed home runs, is all.

[Farmer Ted]

RA was bummed about Bay not getting a homer to left the other day (the ball bounced off the wall). "It would have been a homer anywhere else in the universe." Well, true, but you need to be careful RA. That wall has probably saved a few points on your ERA as well.

[stevejrogers]

Ceetar wrote: the colored seats/wall was a Shea thing. We took the orange foul poles and the apple. that's enough. I'm not against Citi Field developing it's own quirks/color though. I like the kitchy stuff the franchise has done. I miss the neon players.

I don't. I can live with the homer apple, but not something that was a relic of the late 1980s-early 1990s that should have stayed with that era.

It also gives more ammunition for those who think the Mets operate on a minor league level when it comes to their presentation.

Also from Coors, there's the mile high line in the upper deck painted purple. I think it'd be fun to mimic that at Citi, painting an entire row of seats around the stadium orange. Doesn't ahve to mean anything. Or you could put it at the height of Agee's Shea home run. or you could wait until if/when a Mets player homers to the upper deck. Or just start painting the seats orange that Mets hit with home runs. make the outfield seats look rather speculed, but it'd be fun.

Not possible anymore due to the smaller seating bowl. I do like the idea though of bringing back the orange and blue colored seats. Maybe have blue in the Prom and Field level (including the Apple & Bridge seats), and orange in the middle.

[Vic Sage]

yes, by all means, lets have the stadium look like clown vomit.

Stadia used to have "quirks" because of the necessity of engineering them, often in downtown areas. Wall heights and distances were dictated by geography, economics and the limitations of engineering in the early-mid 20th century. What we have now, since Camden Yards, are a bunch of faux charming throwback stadiums, replicating or inventing quirks that are totally arbitrary and whimsical, based on nostalgia and marketing concepts. They are total bullshit, and CitiField is just another example of it.

I have an idea... why not build a stadium that is engineered to provide the best possible view of the game from every seat in the place? That is laid out to be as "neutral" as possible, so as not to impose strategies on the game's management or roster construction, letting the best team win with the minimum amount of "noise"? That's color scheme and visual style celebrates the history and themes of the team playing there, with architectural design consistent with the best design of its OWN time? That is as cost efficient as possible, so that neither the taxpayer or even the owner is saddled with burdensome debt disproportionate to the value of a ballfield? That creates as many permanent jobs in its environment as possible by being integrated into its neighborhood, instead of a stand-alone destination that tries to ignore its surroundings at all costs? That provides not only top-price luxury boxes, but makes cheap seats plentiful, too, without reducing capacity to create "scarcity" and drive up ticket prices, effectively pricing out the majority of the fan base?

CitiField accomplished almost none of this. But this is my criteria; yours and the Wilpons may differ.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Vic Sage wrote: That is as cost efficient as possible, so that neither the taxpayer or even the owner is saddled with burdensome debt disproportionate to the value of a ballfield? That creates as many permanent jobs in its environment as possible by being integrated into its neighborhood, instead of a stand-alone destination that tries to ignore its surroundings at all costs?

I agree with almost all of your planks on this.

But, to be fair, the first of these is nigh-impossible for most municipalities and absolutely impossible in landstrapped New York... and the first, well... the particular neighborhood is more than a bit problematic. Would you rather have a blue-and-orange tire fire in front of the park or a Teach Your Kids To Remove Hubcaps booth in the CF pavilion?

[Vic Sage]

I'd rather have any public funding of any aspect of a new park that's going to get approved in such a locale to have a plan (involving the team) for revitalizing the area rather than ignoring it. This is a park near water and various immigrant communities as well as flushing meadows park. Something smarter could have been done beyond using eminent domain on behalf of private interests who want to build hotels, restaurants and amusements, but even that is preferable (if just barely) to the stadium's continued existence in the no-man's land of the iron triangle.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, I agree with most all of Vic's points too. I still don't care much about the wall distances. I think it's a pointless distraction for all and they could be in Connecticut for all I care. But manufactured quirkiness stinks of falseness, and for all the tiresomeness of the batmagadan's chasing Jeff Wilpon up a tree, it's disappointingly true that Jeff doesn't get this. Mostly I think that where there's a wall, it should be climbable. This almost should be an article in the Fan Bill of Rights. It's just about the most exciting play in baseball, and even if it only happens once a decade, it's physical impossibility dampens any and every game just a little.

I break with LWFS on the indictment of the neighborhood. Its condition and neglect were, in their own way, falsely engineered by the city as well. With just the standard taxpayer treatment over the decades --- drainage/sewer and other municipal services, paving the potholes, enforcing parking codes, the neighborhood would have had a chance to develop into something that complemented the stadium. I'm a free market guy in this regard, and I think indy league teams should sue the Hell out of American cities for the exclusive nonsense the give to major league teams.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy DC wrote: I break with LWFS on the indictment of the neighborhood. Its condition and neglect were, in their own way, falsely engineered by the city as well. With just the standard taxpayer treatment over the decades --- drainage/sewer and other municipal services, paving the potholes, enforcing parking codes, the neighborhood would have had a chance to develop into something that complemented the stadium.

To be clear, I don't disagree with that entirely, either (entirely, that is; as I've heard it, the junkyard owners fought any sort of organized development-- or change-- for a while before Flushing Meadows-Corona Park was even there). But we have what we have at this point... unless you think the Wilpons had much to do with said municipal-service stoppage, it's pointless to pin this "failure" on them.

[Edgy MD]

1) Yes, we have what we have, but in reviewing Vic's post as we were, I thought retrocrit was OK.

2) No, I don't really blame the Wilpons, but I thought the schemings of the city were on that retrocrit table as well.

[Vic Sage]

i'm all about the retrocrit. I even love the word "retrocrit". Is that like a thing?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I don't know, but I like it. I'm pretty sure about 4/5 of my inner life is retrocrit.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Bring them in. I like seeing the Apple rise more than once a month.