Tony Bernazard, Profanity-Laced Tirader

[stevejrogers]

="John Cougar Lunchbucket":2raamsdn] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:2raamsdn] Someone who is looking for a complete overhaul of the Met front office?

Fman99 Jul 23 2009 10:00 AM

="SteveJRogers":xkgg2vhf] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":xkgg2vhf] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:xkgg2vhf] Someone who is looking for a complete overhaul of the Met front office?[/quote:xkgg2vhf] That doesn't rule out ANYBODY. duan Jul 23 2009 10:01 AM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":2zq1piak] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:2zq1piak] Jerry Manuel metirish Jul 23 2009 10:02 AM There are times now and in the past when I have wondered if Rubin has an axe to grind with Bernazard . I may be wrong here but IIRC most of the reporting on Bernazard has come from Rubin. I must submit a question about that in his next chat. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:18 AM ="duan":1iw4w0qg] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1iw4w0qg] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:1iw4w0qg] Jerry Manuel[/quote:1iw4w0qg] Whoever it is seems to want to put both Tony and Omar out of a job, since Tony looks bad for having this stigma on him and Omar looks bad for so badly policing everything. My thought (pure wild speculation) is Omar's assistant, John Ricco. It seems his duties may be the kind that get stepped on by Bernazard, and I wouldn't doubt that a tighter ship could be run. bmfc1 Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM ="Ceetar":1002y1w0] And of course these guys are going to back down and deny it. For many of the same reasons they didn't actually pummel him into a locker. They know he's powerful and in some control of whether or not they move up within the organization. As bad as things are, they don't want to be traded to the Pirates.[/quote:1002y1w0] That is an excellent point. Since Tony B is still in the organization, for now, it would be very wise of them to clam up and act like it wasn't a big deal. Otherwise THEY'D be the ones on the chopping block, or they'd get treated as if they were a bunch of rats by the rest of the organization if Tony B eventually does get fired. Its better for their job security as a AA manager and AA players to treat the incident as a "no big deal" than acting like rats coming out of the woodwork. SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:23 AM ="bmfc1":14rwg35m]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:14rwg35m] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization Ceetar Jul 23 2009 10:25 AM ="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1] ="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1] You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... metirish Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM Good find JCL..... This is turning into a real who done it Mets style. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though... Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.) Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations. That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM ="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM ="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[Fman99]

="SteveJRogers":xkgg2vhf] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":xkgg2vhf] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:xkgg2vhf] Someone who is looking for a complete overhaul of the Met front office?[/quote:xkgg2vhf] That doesn't rule out ANYBODY. duan Jul 23 2009 10:01 AM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":2zq1piak] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:2zq1piak] Jerry Manuel metirish Jul 23 2009 10:02 AM There are times now and in the past when I have wondered if Rubin has an axe to grind with Bernazard . I may be wrong here but IIRC most of the reporting on Bernazard has come from Rubin. I must submit a question about that in his next chat. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:18 AM ="duan":1iw4w0qg] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1iw4w0qg] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:1iw4w0qg] Jerry Manuel[/quote:1iw4w0qg] Whoever it is seems to want to put both Tony and Omar out of a job, since Tony looks bad for having this stigma on him and Omar looks bad for so badly policing everything. My thought (pure wild speculation) is Omar's assistant, John Ricco. It seems his duties may be the kind that get stepped on by Bernazard, and I wouldn't doubt that a tighter ship could be run. bmfc1 Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM ="Ceetar":1002y1w0] And of course these guys are going to back down and deny it. For many of the same reasons they didn't actually pummel him into a locker. They know he's powerful and in some control of whether or not they move up within the organization. As bad as things are, they don't want to be traded to the Pirates.[/quote:1002y1w0] That is an excellent point. Since Tony B is still in the organization, for now, it would be very wise of them to clam up and act like it wasn't a big deal. Otherwise THEY'D be the ones on the chopping block, or they'd get treated as if they were a bunch of rats by the rest of the organization if Tony B eventually does get fired. Its better for their job security as a AA manager and AA players to treat the incident as a "no big deal" than acting like rats coming out of the woodwork. SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:23 AM ="bmfc1":14rwg35m]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:14rwg35m] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization Ceetar Jul 23 2009 10:25 AM ="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1] ="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1] You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... metirish Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM Good find JCL..... This is turning into a real who done it Mets style. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though... Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.) Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations. That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM ="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM ="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[duan]

="John Cougar Lunchbucket":2zq1piak] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:2zq1piak] Jerry Manuel

metirish Jul 23 2009 10:02 AM

There are times now and in the past when I have wondered if Rubin has an axe to grind with Bernazard . I may be wrong here but IIRC most of the reporting on Bernazard has come from Rubin. I must submit a question about that in his next chat.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:18 AM

="duan":1iw4w0qg] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1iw4w0qg] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:1iw4w0qg] Jerry Manuel[/quote:1iw4w0qg] Whoever it is seems to want to put both Tony and Omar out of a job, since Tony looks bad for having this stigma on him and Omar looks bad for so badly policing everything. My thought (pure wild speculation) is Omar's assistant, John Ricco. It seems his duties may be the kind that get stepped on by Bernazard, and I wouldn't doubt that a tighter ship could be run. bmfc1 Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM ="Ceetar":1002y1w0] And of course these guys are going to back down and deny it. For many of the same reasons they didn't actually pummel him into a locker. They know he's powerful and in some control of whether or not they move up within the organization. As bad as things are, they don't want to be traded to the Pirates.[/quote:1002y1w0] That is an excellent point. Since Tony B is still in the organization, for now, it would be very wise of them to clam up and act like it wasn't a big deal. Otherwise THEY'D be the ones on the chopping block, or they'd get treated as if they were a bunch of rats by the rest of the organization if Tony B eventually does get fired. Its better for their job security as a AA manager and AA players to treat the incident as a "no big deal" than acting like rats coming out of the woodwork. SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:23 AM ="bmfc1":14rwg35m]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:14rwg35m] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization Ceetar Jul 23 2009 10:25 AM ="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1] ="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1] You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... metirish Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM Good find JCL..... This is turning into a real who done it Mets style. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though... Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.) Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations. That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM ="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM ="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[metirish]

There are times now and in the past when I have wondered if Rubin has an axe to grind with Bernazard . I may be wrong here but IIRC most of the reporting on Bernazard has come from Rubin.

I must submit a question about that in his next chat.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

="duan":1iw4w0qg] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1iw4w0qg] Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation... [/quote:1iw4w0qg] Jerry Manuel[/quote:1iw4w0qg] Whoever it is seems to want to put both Tony and Omar out of a job, since Tony looks bad for having this stigma on him and Omar looks bad for so badly policing everything. My thought (pure wild speculation) is Omar's assistant, John Ricco. It seems his duties may be the kind that get stepped on by Bernazard, and I wouldn't doubt that a tighter ship could be run. bmfc1 Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM ="Ceetar":1002y1w0] And of course these guys are going to back down and deny it. For many of the same reasons they didn't actually pummel him into a locker. They know he's powerful and in some control of whether or not they move up within the organization. As bad as things are, they don't want to be traded to the Pirates.[/quote:1002y1w0] That is an excellent point. Since Tony B is still in the organization, for now, it would be very wise of them to clam up and act like it wasn't a big deal. Otherwise THEY'D be the ones on the chopping block, or they'd get treated as if they were a bunch of rats by the rest of the organization if Tony B eventually does get fired. Its better for their job security as a AA manager and AA players to treat the incident as a "no big deal" than acting like rats coming out of the woodwork. SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:23 AM ="bmfc1":14rwg35m]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:14rwg35m] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization Ceetar Jul 23 2009 10:25 AM ="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1] ="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1] You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... metirish Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM Good find JCL..... This is turning into a real who done it Mets style. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though... Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.) Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations. That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM ="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM ="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[bmfc1]

Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html

[stevejrogers]

="Ceetar":1002y1w0] And of course these guys are going to back down and deny it. For many of the same reasons they didn't actually pummel him into a locker. They know he's powerful and in some control of whether or not they move up within the organization. As bad as things are, they don't want to be traded to the Pirates.[/quote:1002y1w0] That is an excellent point. Since Tony B is still in the organization, for now, it would be very wise of them to clam up and act like it wasn't a big deal. Otherwise THEY'D be the ones on the chopping block, or they'd get treated as if they were a bunch of rats by the rest of the organization if Tony B eventually does get fired. Its better for their job security as a AA manager and AA players to treat the incident as a "no big deal" than acting like rats coming out of the woodwork.

SteveJRogers Jul 23 2009 10:23 AM

="bmfc1":14rwg35m]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:14rwg35m] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization Ceetar Jul 23 2009 10:25 AM ="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1] ="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1] You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... metirish Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM Good find JCL..... This is turning into a real who done it Mets style. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though... Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.) Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations. That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM ="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM ="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[stevejrogers]

="bmfc1":14rwg35m]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:14rwg35m] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization

Ceetar Jul 23 2009 10:25 AM

="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1] ="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1] You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... metirish Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM Good find JCL..... This is turning into a real who done it Mets style. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though... Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.) Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations. That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM ="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM ="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[Ceetar]

="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1] ="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_for_mets_tony_bernazards_shirt_incident_provides_indecent_exposure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1] There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1] You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... metirish Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM Good find JCL..... This is turning into a real who done it Mets style. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though... Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.) Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations. That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM ="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so. Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM ="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone.

PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him.

]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that....

[metirish]

Good find JCL.....

This is turning into a real who done it Mets style.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess? I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void.

Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though...

Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.)

[Guest Edgy DC]

That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations.

That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it.

[Frayed Knot]

="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31] Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often. Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say.

Ceetar Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM

And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them.

Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM

="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar." ]It doesn't matter though... But you asked.

Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM

No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.

Ceetar Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM

="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were). Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer . LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM ="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[Ceetar]

And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them.

[Guest Edgy DC]

="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on?

By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar."

]It doesn't matter though...

But you asked.

[Frayed Knot]

No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development.



on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar.
Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.

[Ceetar]

="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development. on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar. Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw] That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve? I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were).

Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM

Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves. Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM

="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC.

metirish Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. Tony was a community organizer .

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM

="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1] Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM ="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself. Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM ="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[Frayed Knot]

Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle.



As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves.
Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle.

Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC.

[metirish]

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC.

Tony was a community organizer .

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="metirish":3iikmra1] Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1] Ha. Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- over here.[/url:3iikmra1]

Valadius Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM

Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident.

G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout.

Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM

Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager. Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development. Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League. From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball. Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series. In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation. Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM

="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM

="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says: ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts. But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen.

G-Fafif Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM

I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard.

Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM

Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.

Rockin' Doc Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM

="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM And so the drums beat. Why? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn. seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM ="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one

[Valadius]

Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident.

[G-Fafif]

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that....

The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide

• Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager.


• Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development.


• Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League.


• From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball.


• Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series.


• In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation.


• Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout.

Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says:

]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts.

But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

="G-Fafif"] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone. PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him. ]Tony did not ( I repeat ), did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout.

Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says:

]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts.

But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen.

[G-Fafif]

I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5] I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed.

Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM

The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom

PiggiesTomatoes Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM

From today's Post... ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon.

Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM

And so the drums beat. Why?

Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM

Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about? I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here.

Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM

Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff. But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one. Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season.

Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM

I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around.

Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM

Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing.

G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM

Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate. I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place. Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation.

Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM

I think you're taking the piss with me, G. What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.

seawolf17 Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM

="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c] I'd like to investigate that possibility as well. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on." Valadius Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure". Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa] ="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa] The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th). They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis. It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa] Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No. Comparative failure? Possibly. After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night." (Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.) Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions... Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM ="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y] I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting) Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Pelfrey = 2005 Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM I think I'm just caught in this cycle. - Fire him because of the incident. - Can we establish that? - Fire him becasue of failure. - Can we establish that? - Fire him because of the incident. Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that. Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9). Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16). Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1). Farmer Ted Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft? It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office. I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time. As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development. If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams. But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and ( aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost. The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance. More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.) Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.) (NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.) G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM So...is there gonna be an investigation or what? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol] Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol] Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly: 2005: Fifth 2006: 17th 2007: 16th 2008: Not yet available. G-Fafif Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM I don't think we had this, from Adam Rubin last night: ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident. Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account. Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation. "Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this. We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera. Valadius Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM Then he's an abusive boss as well. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM As well as what? That's what the actual issue is. The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted? Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad. But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. ="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about. Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. SteveJRogers Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM ="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be] When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops. And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans." LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM ="Edgy DC"] Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad. It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.) But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years. ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM ="Frayed Knot"] ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it. And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess. Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record. It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets. That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't. Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent. And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series. dgwphotography Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM ="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born... SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM ="dgwphotography":2ddliwek] ="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident. Kong76 Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<< Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet Yankee fan in Mets' clothing. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM ="Nymr83"] ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace. Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated. So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason Kong76 Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM *post removed, for duh-ness* SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization. Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign. Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season. Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports. Frayed Knot Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem. Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind. [walked into that one] Fman99 Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q] ="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q] ="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people. Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM ="Fman99":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki] ="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki] ="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki] That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki] They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki] I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki] Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit? Nymr83 Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM Don't tell us what its ok to comment on. SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM ="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm] It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations. In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says? SteveJRogers Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make. Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit." Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point. Frayed Knot Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction. For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself. Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851] ="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851] Pick a side, my son. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp] ="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp] Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp] The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS? Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later. SteveJRogers Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM ="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me? My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp] Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight) Edgy DC Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM My head hurts. metsguyinmichigan Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM Mets shame: -- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers. -- Bad patch on sleeve -- Occasional lapses in fielding. Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? Valadius Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling. PiggiesTomatoes Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM ="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval] ...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling. MFS62 Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup] You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM ="MFS62"] ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame: -- Best player outed for using steroids -- Best pitcher outed for using steroids -- Best reliever has pool that kills people -- Michael Kay Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? You forgot : -- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one. Later Ahem. (I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM Double post. G-Fafif Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox. Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension. Ashie62 Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk] Or Bernazards emotions Edgy DC Aug 02 2009 01:55 PM Daily News (but not Adam Rubin) digging up a lot more PLT stories about Bernazard. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=0 Rockin' Doc Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did. Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM Huh! Edgy DC Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM Oh, you missed some shee-it. Ashie62 Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one