Billy's elbow ... and surgery!!

[Frayed Knot]

What Morgan, Miller & Gammons were talking about during the game is also what Minaya was having a mini-Q & A w/reporters before the game. I only caught a piece of it on the radio.
Basically he felt pain again during his simulated inning between games and will see the docs tomorrow.

From Rubin's blog:
All-Star closer Billy Wagner just cut short a simulated game after about a dozen pitches because of what GM Omar Minaya called �discomfort� in his left elbow. Wagner ... will consult with team doctors once again Monday in Manhattan.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Guest

[metirish]

obviously not a good thing , I expect him to be out for the season.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Gammons relayed that the pain following the 13th pitch of the simulated game brought tears to Wagner's eyes. Doesn't sound good at all.

[Guest holychicken]

I was hopeful we would see him again this season, but after hearing that he cried, I am convinced he is done for the season.

[Centerfield]

It seemed strange that we didn't hear about any follow up MRI before his rehab throwing. Hopefully they'll get it checked out and get him in good shape for next year.

[Guest AG/DC]

It's a game changer.

We thought we had a sackup job ahead of us when the starters went down at the end of 2006. This is seriously interesting. This bullpen is not only terrifying --- we're going to need every last one of them.

And Manuel won't likely have the luxury of throwing them out there for one out appearances come the post season.

Ayala is givng us some of the most hard-hit saves in Metland in a long time.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I don't wanna be a complete tardclown, but we've been playing .667 ball (22-11) since Wagner went down. I like how it seems as if everyone sacked up just a little bit and got a just little tougher, and we beat the bushes and plugged the hero void with Stokes and Ayala.

Maine is prolly the bigger loss, but we're gonna get by there too, I hope.

[soupcan]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I don't wanna be a complete tardclown, but we've been playing .667 ball (22-11) since Wagner went down. I like how it seems as if everyone sacked up just a little bit and got a just little tougher, and we beat the bushes and plugged the hero void with Stokes and Ayala. Maine is prolly the bigger loss, but we're gonna get by there too, I hope.

I agree.

I realize that Wagner is a top-echelon guy but he was having a pretty up and down year.

Ayala is 6 of 7, hard hit or not. Lunchables made a good point about him throwing strikes - 1 walk in 10 innings since he's been here. I'm not saying that he's better than Wagner but the bullpen as presently situated is working.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Count me among those who don't see Wagner as irreplaceable.

I think the Mets will be fine without him for the next 19 games, while they can still carry a 40-man bullpen.

It's in October (if there is an October) that his absence will become more of a problem. Whichever pitcher takes his spot on the post-season roster will probably be a downgrade. (I'd speculate on the exact configuration of the post-season bullpen, but I'd prefer to wait until the magic number drops a bit more.)

As for Maine, with the scattered off-days in the NLDS schedule, it's possible that the Mets can play five games with only three starters. (Santana, Pelfrey, and Perez.) If they advance to the NLCS and the World Series, then they'll probably have to use Pedro. It's noteworthy that, if Maine was healthy, then Pedro Martinez would be a decent bet to miss the post-season roster.

[Guest AG/DC]

I think Pedro would have a comfortable spot in the bullpen under such circumstances.

I don't think anybody has argued that Wagner is irreplaceable.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Also, I think they can get more out of Stokes than from Ayala, and maybe the next 19 games will demonstrate that. (Or not...)

I also hope that Wagner's injury prods the Mets to look at possible replacements in the free agent market this off-season. (I'm thinking Brian Fuentes, but I suppose Francisco Rodriguez will be discussed too. The problem with him is he'll get a lot more money than he's worth.)

[Guest AG/DC]

Stokes used in a late-inning, one-out situation last night was interesting, wasn't it? No more bailouts for him, maybe.

[Benjamin Grimm]

AG/DC wrote: I don't think anybody has argued that Wagner is irreplaceable.

I'm not aware that anyone has. I'm just stating that he's not.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I've been reliving Brian Stokes' Mets career in the CPF, just to confirm whether this feeling I'd had that I knew all along he was a secretly great pickup was accurate or not.

Well, not really. But someone owes him an apology...

http://cranepoolforum.qwknetllc.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8520&highlight=stokes

]Let's not delude ourselves. Stokes SUCKS. He will NOT make the team. If he does, it will be an enormous mistake.

http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/7800/f1_t7869.shtml

]WHY?!?!?

[Benjamin Grimm]

The firm confidence of the first quoted post had me pretty sure I knew who the author was. Clicking the links confirmed that I was right.

[metirish]

Jeez that was a surprise to see who posted that.

[Valadius]

Dude had a 7 ERA in Tampa. It's a miracle he's doing so well here.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Oh. So I guess you were right after all!

[metirish]

I'm going to guess that Ayala's ERA was high as a Nats player and now not so high.

[duan]

="Benjamin Grimm"]Oh. So I guess you were right after all!

I'm unimpressed THAT NOBODY picked up my hilarious gag about the image rights etc.

[Valadius]

Yes, but Ayala has a good track record in seasons past. Stokes didn't have that.

[Benjamin Grimm]

It's okay that you were wrong; we've all been wrong about many things in our lives.

The lesson you should learn from this is to not be so absolute. If you had said, "I don't think Stokes will be helpful. He's been awful for Tampa Bay" nobody would be throwing it up in your face right now. But when you trash him so categorically ("it will be an enormous mistake") you open yourself to a bit of mockery.

You often talk as if you know the future. You don't. None of us do. Soften your pronouncements a little bit and you'll come off as a more rational person.

[Frayed Knot]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I also hope that Wagner's injury prods the Mets to look at possible replacements in the free agent market this off-season. (I'm thinking Brian Fuentes, but I suppose Francisco Rodriguez will be discussed too. The problem with him is he'll get a lot more money than he's worth.)

Y'see, here I was thinking exactly the opposite (as we both continue to get ahead of ourselves here).

My thought was that succeeding withOUT Billy might break a team of the addiction to a big money **CLOSER** and plant an idea about structuring a bullpen in a more flexible way that's not dependent on one guy in the 9th inning role no matter how he was pitching at that moment.
There were already rumblings among Met fans about F Rodriguez even before Wagner went down - at least some of which is 'GiGS' thinking based on his impending **SAVES** record. He's good (and certainly younger) but, of course, he's not going to solve the late-inning "agita problem" (he walks A LOT) and it also relies on the idea of a $25mil back of the pen at least for one year.

Be fine with me if they stayed away from the FA closer market for a while.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I like your wish better than mine, but while that would be my preference, I don't expect the Mets to take that approach.

Maybe that's one reason I prefer Fuentes to Rodriguez. Fuentes seems like he might be more likely to fit into a committee bullpen with a recovering Wagner.

[Frayed Knot]

Well, this question got a lot more in play because (acc to WFAN) they've apparently found a tear in Wagner's elbow (Medial Collateral Ligament) requiring surgery and [u:0f77b0147f]One Year[/u:0f77b0147f] of recovery time.

[soupcan]

Out the rest of this year and next.

Buh-bye Billy.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Holy ligametal illness.

[seawolf17]

Rough, dude.

Pedro for closer in 2009!

[Valadius]

Whoa.

Okay, who's on the market this offseason?

[Frayed Knot]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I like your wish better than mine, but while that would be my preference, I don't expect the Mets to take that approach.

Now that most of my previous post on the topic is out of date, I didn't expect them to follow it either.
A 2nd good year out of Braden Looper might have at least temporarily cured them of the big ticket closer disease. But he tried pitching through injury that 2nd year to the point where most Met fans even forget that he was ever good and lump him in with Mel Rojas in discussions of worst pitchers ever to stain the uniform.

]Maybe that's one reason I prefer Fuentes to Rodriguez. Fuentes seems like he might be more likely to fit into a committee bullpen with a recovering Wagner.

I don't think anyone in their FA year capable of closing is going to agree to a set-up role even if he were paid like a closer and promised the role a year or so down the road. The FA is calling the shots and there are just too many spots for him to wind up.

Somewhat different story now of course.