To pull (Johan) or not to pull

[Frayed Knot]

... that is certainly the question of the day

Obviously the move backfired big time and, just as obviously, the main culprits are the 4 relievers who needed to go through 11 batters before they got 3 outs no matter how one determines the smarts vs dumpth factor of the move.

A quick review of the facts:
* it was a 3-run lead when he was PH'd-for in bottom 8 with 1 out and none on
* 105 pitches
* 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 was due up for Philly in the 9th
* no Wagner available

The one sound-bite I heard from Manual was that he was thinking of sending him back but was at least partly disuaded by Burrell's 2-out 8th inning double (a hit that may have been foul). One could also look to Victorino's 7th inning HR or the long-ish FO from Howard that followed Burrell's 2B and ended the 8th as signs that he was 'losing it'.

The bit of talk-radio from the post-mortem mostly involved heaps of garbage being tossed at - not Manual - but Santana. It was as if it was not so much a managerial decision but one of the star pitcher prima donna either asking out or flat-out refusing to pitch any further (a very different reaction, I'd guess, than if Willie were still in charge). Most of the arguments took the form of macho posturing: what a wuss; all that money and he can't go nine; back when men were men; Bob Gibson wouldn't have allowed the ball to be taken; yadda, yadda.

[Guest AG/DC]

Pat Burrell gets around on lefties. Period. It would have taken a lot of the equivalent of Burrell doubles to cough up that lead, and PB himself would have only come up once. On hundred and five pitches? Gotta send him back out there.

Tom Seaver would be upset.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I would've sent him out there and would have kept him in at least as long as there was nobody on base.

The people blaming Santana are idiots, pure and simple.

There was a new columnist in the Daily News this morning. (At least I think he was new, I had never noticed him before.) His name was Tim Smith, or something like that. He was saying, sure, Santana's pitched well, but for the kind of money he's getting, he should pitch a shutout every time out.

I couldn't get through the article, though. I know there are some here who enjoy picking apart stupid columns. If you're one of them, you may want to check it out.

[metirish]

Seaver would be upset but Seaver today would no doubt acknowledge that the game is different than when he starred.

Personally at the time I didn't have a problem with Santana being pulled , I think I may have even being expecting it , the booth talked about it quite a bit IIRC.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I don't see the big deal in taking him out, especially considering he was due a turn at bat and we still needed runs to make up for the IDIOTIC BASERUNNING which really ought to be the topic of conversation today.

If the bullpen can't be trusted to get 3 outs before 6 runs score you have no biz winning anywhoo.

[Guest Mendoza Line]

Nothing wrong with the move as far as I'm concerned. Maybe Santana could have pitched the ninth, but why push it? It wasn't unreasonable to expect the bullpen to get three outs before the Phils scored three runs, Wagner or no Wagner.

[Frayed Knot]

That's kind of where I'm at too.
Saying that things would have turned out better had he been left in is an easy one to make and pretty much an after-the-fact rationalization since virtually A-N-Y hurler w/a 3-run lead SHOULD be able to get out of the game.

I certainly wouldn't have minded him staying in for the 9th, I just don't view the switch as a lame-brained move -- and I certainly don't buy thw whole diva-pitcher/this is what's wrong with baseball today angle.

[Guest AG/DC]

Yeah, but the issue isn't what's reasonable to expect. It's reasonable to expect any major league pitcher or borderline major league pitcher to keep his ERA under 27.

The issue is what's most reasonable to expect. Sticking with Johan's the best bet and going past 105 doesn't seem like pushing it.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

What's most reasonable, I think, is trying to score in the 8th inning. Where do you stand on the reasonableness of that?

[Frayed Knot]

Duaner as borderline major leaguer is a bit harsh.
He's also unscored-upon in his last 7 outings/innings.

[Guest AG/DC]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: What's most reasonable, I think, is trying to score in the 8th inning. Where do you stand on the reasonableness of that?

Ouch. Certainly. But that's not what I'm being asked in this thread.

I'm certainly not implying that Duaner is a borderline major leauger. I'm agreeing that it's reasonable to expect of Duaner, and of anybody.

[batmagadanleadoff]

The way I see it, when you lose a game where you had a three run lead going into the last inning, you blame the pitchers that pitched the 9th inning, if you have to blame any pitchers, at all. This pitching debacle was compounded by the fact that it was the bottom of the Phillie batting order that did the damage.

[batmagadanleadoff]

A couple of bad breaks for the Mets that were somewhat tolerated when they occurred because the game seemed to be safely in Mets hands at the time:

The two Endy Chavez base-running blunders;

Tatis' two-out line drive with the bases loaded that was speared by a diving/flying Chase Utley.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

If there's one thing to take away from this game it's to drive home what I've been saying all year -- Feliciano has been just awful this year. I know he got switched up on, but that's going to happen. At least with Duaner you know he's capable of better: Feliciano is getting his man less than 50% of the time, killing his teammate's ERAs.

I think he and Anderson just don't have it this year and ought to be replaced.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

I pull him. I really thought he looked like he emptied the tank in the 8th, and I don't want to burn a pitcher for any single regular season game. There's a lot more seasons and dollars riding on Johan's arm, and I applaud Manuel's discipline in pulling a pitcher before you put too much stress on him, even if doing so would help in the short-term.

The real problems were that Duaner Sanchez was garbage and Feliciano has, apparently, become a LOOGY.

[Vic Sage]

the loss is on 9th inning performances of Sanchez, Feliciano and Reyes. Endy's failures were the fault of the 3b coach. Luis Aguayo.

in other words, the headline should read: "Phillies Phlatten Latins"

[smg58]

Santana has, in fact, turned in higher pitch counts in general this year than in the past. But 105 pitches is hardly excessive, and the closer was not available. Plus if Santana starts the inning and one or two guys get on, you can always go to the pen then, but if Sanchez starts the inning and struggles you can't bring Santana back in the game.

There's a time and place to protect your starter, for certain. I had no problem with taking Santana out when he'd thrown 116 pitches after 7 innings, for example. But last night was 105 pitches after 8 innings, Wagner was not available, and it was the biggest game of the year to date.

PS The responsibility for pitching changes ultimately falls to the manager. Blaming Santana for the manager's decision, especially with no evidence that Santana influenced the decision, is just stupid.

[Gwreck]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: If the bullpen can't be trusted to get 3 outs before 6 runs score you have no biz winning anywhoo.

I was debating Santana's removal last night with others in my section. I argued that removing him was the correct idea, in part to essential tenets of the above comment.

Also didn't see a need to push Santana into the 9th when he finished a shorter outing -- keeping him fresh and not tired, and all that.

[Frayed Knot]

Jerry on his regular weekly radio spot:

- If Santana had gotten Burrell in the 8th AND insisted on pitching the 9th himself he would have allowed it, but was comfortable with the relievers not blowing up

- Not so down on the first throw-out at home because it took 2 excellent throws. Thought the 2nd was a misjudgement based on late start (liner which might get caught) and just the single throw, and the situation, etc.

- trying to get Anderson's bat going so that he'll be useful as PH guy down the road. Is starting again tonight.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Frayed Knot wrote: - trying to get Anderson's bat going so that he'll be useful as PH guy down the road. Is starting again tonight.

Here's hoping that works out, but if it doesn't they're not afraid to act.

[Centerfield]

Anderson sucked for LA before catching fire for the Mets last year right?

Anyway, here is Manuel's reaction to being second-guessed.

�I got a lot of questions about my decisions, but I was very comfortable and confident in my decisions. They didn�t work out, obviously, and that happens in the course of baseball. Unfortunately, I didn�t have any regrets from the decisions I made last night or tonight. Actually, I don�t whether that�s fortunate or unfortunate, but I didn�t. I know that in New York, with so many different people and personalities (in the media), there�s a difference of opinions and that�s good. I�m good with that. That�s cool. I don�t have a problem with that.�

I really like Jerry.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Me too.

Is there anyone who misses Willie Randolph?

[Guest themetfairy]

I don't miss Willie.

[metirish]

="Benjamin Grimm"]Me too. Is there anyone who misses Willie Randolph?

Bill Madden , Jonette Howard , Jon Harper and most of all Wayne Coffey.

[Guest holychicken]

="Benjamin Grimm"]Me too. Is there anyone who misses Willie Randolph?

Nope. He makes me wish we would have fired Randolph even earlier . . . like 2:14am EST.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I ______ Willie.

[Frayed Knot]

To be fair to Willie, he used to give that same 'I don't second guess my decisions' speech too.
The difference is that Jerry sounds less defensive while doing so.

[Centerfield]

To me, the biggest difference is that Willie always tried to portray himself as intelligent and confident in his abilities, while Manuel is intelligent and confident in his abilities.

[Benjamin Grimm]

You can be both unintelligent and confident.

Willie fits that description, as does our (thankfully) outgoing President.

Dumb people who think they're smart; that can make for a dangerous combination.

[Frayed Knot]

See I don't think Willie was baseball dumb. Let's face it, the in-game strategy is virtually indistinguishable since the change and Jerry is getting passes on things that we (and others) would have screamed about before. I think a number of things are better but not so much the Xs & Os.
By the same token I don't see him as confident either.

Willie's problem IMO was that he always seemed too humg up trying to show others that his moves were sound to the point where he became overly-defensive trying to justify them, eventually falling back on his 'I'm from New York/I'm a winner' silliness. Jerry, on the other hand, will answer the same question with a 'hey if it doesn't work I'll live with it' attitude.

The latter method exudes confidence while the former acts as a cover for the lack of it.