The best Shortstop in the NL East

[Guest AG/DC]

This is too close to call, so I'm putting it to a vote.

Guzman is quietly having himself a season.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I like Reyes best but I voted for Rollins

[Gwreck]

Reyes is 4 years younger.

If the war is only going to last -- say, 2 years -- the vote might be different.

[nymr83]

give me Ramirez.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

You can't just dismiss Rollins despite being older than the other two, but if you're asking which player will have the most value at shortstop for the rest of their career, being four and a half years older than your competition is a HUGE disadvantage. I'm gonna choose between Reyes and Ramirez.

Reyes, 2006: .300/.354/.487/115 OPS+/.293 EQA/58.8 VORP/-12 FRAA/3.80 RFg/+13 plusminus/7.5 WARP3
Reyes, 2007: .280/.354/.421/103 OPS+/.284 EQA/46.2 VORP/14 FRAA/4.05 RFg/+13 plusminus/10.3 WARP3
Reyes, 2008: .297/.359/.488/124 OPS+/.325 EQA/30.4 VORP/5 FRAA/4.22 RFg/9.4 WARP3

Ramirez, 2006: .292/.353/.480/116 OPS+/.291 EQA/54.9 VORP/-9 FRAA/4.34 RFg/7.7 WARP3
Ramirez, 2007: .332/.386/.562/145 OPS+/.325 EQA/89.5 VORP/-22 FRAA/4.09 RFg/-37 plusminus/9.3 WARP3
Ramirez, 2008: .294/.384/.513/137 OPS+/.315 EQA/35.4 VORP/-4 FRAA/4.21 RFg/8.4 WARP3


Tough, tough call. Ramirez is clearly the better hitter, while Reyes is a lot better in the field (I included whatever fielding bible data I could find).
Aw, screw it, I'm taking Jose.

[metirish]

I'll take Ramirez , I hate that I am even admitting that.

[seawolf17]

I voted for Reyes; but at gunpoint, I'm really tempted to go with Hanley Ramirez.

[MFS62]

If you're going to war tomorrow, you'd better win soon, or you might be dead in a number of years.
So I pick Rollins to fight for me tomorrow, even though he's older.
"Number of years" wasn't specific enough.

Later

[TransMonk]

Ramirez.

That Reyes kid ain't bad, though.

[Theoldmole]

Since you can't go wrong with any of the three of them, I voted for Reyes.

[smg58]

Reyes. Defense matters too much at shortstop for me to give this to Hanley.

[Guest AG/DC]

This really could change with a couple of different polls.

Who do you want if you were in a seven-game series starting next week?

Who do you want to finish the season with?

Who do you want over the next three years?

Who do you want for the rest of their careers?

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Jimmy Rollins, 2008:
.289/.353/.468/110 OPS+/.290 EQA/19.1 VORP/0 FRAA/4.33 RFg/4.9 WARP3

It's probably just a slow start (and it's still pretty damn good for a shortstop), but if you're gonna ask me who helps the most right now, I don't put Rollins with Reyes and Ramirez, who are both tearing the cover off the ball.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Tim Marchman weighs in on the Reyes vs Ramirez debate:
http://www.nysun.com/sports/a-creative-take-on-the-nl-all-star-ballot/80381/

[Elster88]

The numbers are closer than I thought but I don't see why Reyes would be picked over Ramirez except for Homerism. And Ramirez is a little younger.

[Zvon]

IMO Ramirez, [u:df6ef02b77]at the plate[/u:df6ef02b77], is everything I expect Reyes to be when he realizes his full potential.

In the field Reyes has it all over him, and probably the best arm of them all.

Reyes has the potential to be the best but he falls short at this time.
For unintangible reasons.

Rollins is what he is...a phrakin Phil. Leadership wise he would get the nod.
I think he has more intangibles than the Capt himself.
But if it's my team, and right now I could have any shortstop, gimme Hanley.

[nymr83]

i dont think Reyes will ever put up a year at the plate like the one Hanley Ramirez had last year.

[Guest AG/DC]

I don't think Ramirez ever put up a year on defense like Reyes at his worst.

The real story is the defending MVP getting shafted in this poll.

[Guest AG/DC]

This season

Yunel Escobar, Atlanta
109 OPS+, 328 PA, 2 SB, 4 CS

Hanley Ramirez, Florida:
144 OPS+, 334 PA, 19 SB, 5 CS

Jose Reyes, New York:
123 OPS+, 337 PA, 26 SB, 7 CS

Jimmy Rollins, Philadelphia
103 OPS+, 230 PA, 15 SB, 0 CS

Cristian Guzman, Washington
101 OPS+, 339 PA, 3 SB, 2 CS

By the way, zone rating stats suggest I don't know what I'm talking about. Hanley is kicking Jose's ass.

[Elster88]

Sure enough about the defense. Going by old-fashioned errors Reyes owns Ramirez, even though Reyes is assuredly no stud himself. But if defense is 15% of the game (or was it 10%?, I'd still take Ramirez if I had no emotional attachments.

[Elster88]

="AG/DC"]This season Yunel Escobar, Atlanta 109 OPS+, 328 PA, 2 SB, 4 CS Hanley Ramirez, Florida: 144 OPS+, 334 PA, 19 SB, 5 CS Jose Reyes, New York: 123 OPS+, 337 PA, 26 SB, 7 CS Jimmy Rollins, Philadelphia 103 OPS+, 230 PA, 15 SB, 0 CS Cristian Guzman, Washington 101 OPS+, 339 PA, 3 SB, 2 CS By the way, zone rating stats suggest I don't know what I'm talking about. Hanley is kicking Jose's ass.

Why even bring SB into it? Shirley that doesn't mean much in the scheme of this discussion?

[Guest AG/DC]

It means what it means. Everything counts. Stolen bases are not covered in OPS+, so there it is.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Elster88 wrote: The numbers are closer than I thought but I don't see why Reyes would be picked over Ramirez except for Homerism. And Ramirez is a little younger.

6 months younger, not a big deal (like when ESPN did a story at the beginning of the season about the best shortstops under age 25, but omitted Reyes, 24 at the time, because this is his year 25 season).

There's more to it than homerism- Hanley has been, through his career so far, a butcher in the field. He has improved this year, but his defensive stats still hurt his "overall game"-type numbers:

Win Shares 2006/07/08
Reyes 29/24/11
Ramirez 25/29/13

WARP3 2006/07/08
Reyes 7.5/10.2/8.7
Ramirez 7.7/9.4/8.8

Very close. The reason I give Reyes the edge is because I think that, Ramirez, a bad shortstop with lots of range, will wind up playing center field sooner rather than later.
Now, If he improves his D to the point he could stay at the position, I'd go with him, easily.

[Guest AG/DC]

My thinking also.