Joe Torre

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Hiya, I've never posted here, but I've been lurking for a while. I was at the game last night and I was wondering what people thought of Torre getting cheers. Like, why was he cheered? Was it because of his bang-up 286-420 record as a Mets manager? His 700 at-bats as a Mets catcher? Maybe it's because I'm too young to remember him in the 70's, but to me this guy is a MFY through and through. To me, at least, he'll always be Moff Tarkin to Steinbrenner's Emperor Palpatine (which would make Cashman Darth Vader, since I kinda think he can be brought back from the dark side).

I mean, he seems like a nice guy and all, but so does Tom Glavine and some of the other Met nemeses who would be booed vociferously at Shea. Is it the cancer survivor thing? Would Giuliani be received so warmly?

I know it's not the worst thing in the world, and the crowd last night wasn't very "into" the game (I thought the frickin wave would never end), but I just wanted to gauge what Mets fans thought.

Most importantly, am I a jerk for booing him as loud as I could?

[soupcan]

With one post I feel I already know you (maybe I do).

I was also a bit miffed about Torre getting cheered. Why was he cheered? Because he's a New York baseball icon? Fine, whatever. But this is Shea Stadium. You are supposed to be Mets fans.

What'd this guy ever do for you?

I wouldn't necessarily boo him any more than I would any other opposing manager but cheer him loudly? Nah.

[seawolf17]

Actually a mighty good question. I never really hated Torre, though. I had a grudging respect for the guy. Maybe it was the cancer, maybe it was his secret Metliness, or maybe it was just that there were too many guys across town to dislike (Jeets, Paulie, Kid Toucher McRoidass, Sheffield, Pettitte, Giambi, et al) that Torre just never got that venom.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I prolly wouldn't have booed him unless we were losing big in the late innings and he came out to make a mid-inning pitching change or something.

I think Torre is back on the side of good. I don;lt hate the Dodgers that much, and I'm certainly hoping they finish with a better record than the MFYs which is a reasonable expectation IMO. We're better than both teams.

Anyway, I think Torre's shortcoming as a manager with the Mets was that he was way, WAY below par in ammunition, not that he was incompetant, per se. I don't know of a Mets player who didn't respect him or get along with him. Were there any?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Bobby Valentine!

[metirish]

Hi cracker , welcome Abordick.

I thought there were plenty of boos mixed in with the standing ovation , which to me watching at home seemed half hearted , like a hurry the fuck of the field kind of ovation.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Bobby Valentine!

He was mad at Torre when he was released, is that what you're referring to? I think that was a deRoulet cost-slashing thing.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, I can't remember the details, but I think he blasted Torre on his way out the door.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Don't mean to hijack the conversation but curious as your takes on Torre the Met Manager. He lasted an awful long time for an awful team.

So far we have Valentine as one unhappy camper.

Comments on strategy? Strengths? Weaknesses?

[Guest AG/DC]

It's hard to call somebody with that long a career in the National League, plus managing all three National League teams he played for, a Yankee through and through.

He was treated like shit by Steinbrenner like most all of his managers were, which he quietly endured, though four championships gave him more armor to protect himself. The loyalty he inspired triggered two longtime coaches to throw themselves on their swords for him.

The worst I can say about him is (1) he allowed those coaches to do so, rather than tell Steinbrenner to stick it (which he eventually did), and (2) he defended Clemens as his Yankee for the same behavior he indicted him for a Blue Jay. But I'm afraid just about any other manager would have done the same.

He's a pretty gracious guy. The old WABC video from the day of his firing by the Mets has him wanting to make it easier on Frank Cashen, because he knew how hard it was to tell a player he was being released. His next concern at the time was for his coaching staff, the core of which went back to Gil Hodges. He recognized that he still had a guaranteed year of pay coming, they did not, and made a public statement endorsing them as great candidates for another job. He then rehired at least three of them when he got the Atlanta job.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Okay, so I guess I am a jerk for booing him (there's worse things to be, right?). That's just a result of never knowing him as a Met. But still, cheers? If he had retired after the 2000 World Series and come back to Shea the next season for some reason, how would the crowd have reacted then? I guess I'm splitting hairs, though.
Oh, well- it was a good game, anyhoo.

[Benjamin Grimm]

="The Sporting News, April 14, 1979, page 54."] VALENTINE RAPS METS Bitter over being released, veteran infielder Bobby Valentine charged the Mets with "lacking professional courtesy." At a press conference after he was dropped March 24, Valentine said, "Ten days ago I asked (Manager) Joe Torre if I was on the club. I knew my status here was on the fringe and I asked for permission here to talk to other clubs if I wasn�t going to stay. He told me not to worry." With his release, "coming at this time, with only a few days left in spring training, there is no club that�s going to pick me up," he said. "They won�t have time to look at me."

Thanks, Paper of Record!

[Guest AG/DC]

Vince Coleman Firecracker wrote: Okay, so I guess I am a jerk for booing him (there's worse things to be, right?).

As long as you're reserving your booing for the opposite squad, you're OK by me.

[Guest holychicken]

I think he was cheered because everyone knows the Yanks treated him like crap and he basically told them to F-off. Every Met fan can appreciate that.

[Guest AG/DC]

="Benjamin Grimm"] ="The Sporting News, April 14, 1979, page 54."] VALENTINE RAPS METS Bitter over being released, veteran infielder Bobby Valentine charged the Mets with "lacking professional courtesy." At a press conference after he was dropped March 24, Valentine said, "Ten days ago I asked (Manager) Joe Torre if I was on the club. I knew my status here was on the fringe and I asked for permission here to talk to other clubs if I wasn�t going to stay. He told me not to worry." With his release, "coming at this time, with only a few days left in spring training, there is no club that�s going to pick me up," he said. "They won�t have time to look at me." Thanks, Paper of Record!

At least he was wrong and did get picked up by Seattle (and put up a .405 OBP, yo), so I imagine he put it behind him. Nelson Briles was done.

[Frayed Knot]

]I've never posted here, but I've been lurking for a while

Seen you lurking and figured you'd chime in at some point (although I also put up some new curtains in the bathroom just in case).

="holychicken"]I think he was cheered because everyone knows the Yanks treated him like crap and he basically told them to F-off. Every Met fan can appreciate that.

I think that - plus his status as a long-time baseball man and former Met player & manager - fits the bill for most cheerers.
Were I there last night I don't think I'd have cheered or booed but rather taken a bold stand of total indifference.

There also might have been a smattering of MFY fans on hand specifically for his return.

[Willets Point]

I couldn't help but notice how happy and healthy Torre looked last night, even when his team was losing.

[MFS62]

Screw Torre.
Instead of thanking the fans who cheered him for their warm welcome, I heard an interview during which he said he thought the cheers were nice, but they would have been louder in Yankee Stadium.

Later

[Guest AG/DC]

Where was that?

[Elster88]

AG/DC wrote: It's hard to call somebody with that long a career in the National League, plus managing all three National League teams he played for, a Yankee through and through.

It's not hard at all. His NL managing career was undistinguished and before the time of eight ESPN channels, screaming talk-show hosts, and the Internet. And the memories of his playing days are probably largely forgotten relative to the recent Yankee stuff. In any postseason in 1996 or after, you couldn't turn on ESPN without seeing Torre crying about the last Yankee playoff game. Like it or not, Torre is a Yankee through and through and through for most of the baseball-watching world.

[MFS62]

AG/DC wrote: Where was that?

All News WCBS Radio - which carries the Yankee games in NYC.

Later

[Guest AG/DC]

"Through and through" describes (or should describe) what he is full stop. Not what he is to the baseball-watching world.

[Elster88]

Yes. I was disagreeing that it is "hard to call" Torre a Yankee. It's not.