Torches and Pitchforks (spit from IGT 4/24)

[Guest Grote15]

Can one..just one person agree with me that Willie Randolph needs to go.

Geez..I started thinking if Frank thomas could play first base...Now we have AA catching. Less spark than 9/2007

As Otter siad. "This is ridiculous" Where have you gone paul loduca our lonely eyes turn to you

Oh for heilman. I dont like you, and I never liked you..But we're stuck with you..Sosa can be dispensed with..like..now?

[Guest mario25]

Call Piazza...he will catch...then let him end his career as a Rh hitter /spot starter off the bench....

[Guest Triple Dee]

Grote15 wrote: Can one..just one person agree with me that Willie Randolph needs to go.

Me, and I've been it saying since last September. Willie's a nice guy, but a good baseball manager, he is not.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Grote15 wrote: Can one..just one person agree with me that Willie Randolph needs to go

I was calling for him to go by about Memorial Day of 2005. I thought for for sure that he wouldn't survive last season's finish when the season ended.

[Guest mario25]

He can go in my book but who takes over???? Hojo? Wally Backaman??? Just wondering who fans would like in there.

[batmagadanleadoff]

mario25 wrote: He can go in my book but who takes over???? Hojo? Wally Backaman??? Just wondering who fans would like in there.

I'd give it to Rickey Henderson just to stick it to that Camera guy.

[Guest mario25]

Jerry Manuel has managed previously

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Switch Willie with Acta in the dead of night and skip town.

[Guest Triple Dee]

mario25 wrote: Jerry Manuel has managed previously

That's the first sensible suggestion I've heard.

[Guest AG/DC]

So, let's take inventory here, what is Willie appearing to fail at and what can be improved, either by him or by a replacement.

Answers I like:

• He's over-using Aaron Heilman.


• He's mis-using Aaron Heilman.


• He's not clear with Aaron Heilman about Heilman's role.

Answers I dis-like:

• He's using Aaron Heilman!

[metirish]

I don't much care for Randolph but I would not be rushing to Jerry Manuel , I think this team needs a big shake up and cutting Delgado might do that , not going to happen though.

[Guest AG/DC]

What will cutting Delgado do? I can't see that teaching other players not to get old and decline.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Cutting Delgado would shake up the team.

It wouldn't by any means improve it, but it would shake it up.

You don't (and can't) cut Delgado until and unless you have someone to replace him with. And the Mets simply don't.

[metirish]

AG/DC wrote: What will cutting Delgado do? I can't see that teaching other players not to get old and decline.

Fair point , it's not his fault he is getting old and declining , still I would cut him .

[seawolf17]

[Batty31]

I couldn't resist posting this after seawolf's post....


Bobby in Disguise
(To the tune of Judy in Disguise)

Bobby in disguise
Well that's how you stayed
Trying to hide, yeah
Beneath a pair of shades
But you were spied
By the TV guys
Bobby in disguise -- with glasses

Black tape for a mustache
And a non-Mets cap
Then the league said "Bobby,
your pay is zapped."
Stayin' in the clubhouse would have been wise
Bobby in disguise -- with glasses

You couldn't stay out of sight
You couldn't stay out of sight
You made the umpire uptight
By questioning his calls that night

Bobby in disguise
Well that's how you stayed
Trying to hide, yeah
Beneath a pair of shades
But you were spied
By the TV guys
Bobby in disguise -- with glasses

(instrumental interlude)

You couldn't stay out of sight
You couldn't stay out of sight
You made the umpire uptight
By questioning his calls that night

Bobby in disguise
You gotta work real hard
To win the East division, yeah
Or get a wild card
Before your whole system crashes
I guess I'll just take your glasses

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Torches & pitchforks? Look, we don't have poison the well on both ends here.

I am thinking the reason to fire a manager is not when results are bad, necessarily, but when the players stop playing hard for him and he loses whatever ability he possesses to get something from them.

The Mets seem to have resumed the uninspired ball they played for much of last year. But in the intrerest of fairness I will give Wilie at least the first one-third of the year to show the team can accomplish inspired ball under his watch and assess then. That's about twice what we've played already, or 55 games.

Sound fair?

[Guest Grote15]

AG/DC wrote: So, let's take inventory here, what is Willie appearing to fail at and what can be improved, either by him or by a replacement. Answers I like: He's over-using Aaron Heilman. He's mis-using Aaron Heilman. He's not clear with Aaron Heilman about Heilman's role. Answers I dis-like: He's using Aaron Heilman!

Aaron Heilman is not the issue..The Mets in my opinion have been lethargic since Willie took over..Never more so than 2007-2008..I believe a manager is responsible for getting the most from what he has..not just making the same annoyed face when fundamental after fundamental are botched.

For God's sake Reyes looks like he's in a coma and almost afraid of playing..Delgado? We all get old if we're lucky..The Mets gambled and as of now its' not a winning bet.

I would replace him with Bobby V..he fought for his players..ever seen Willie do that? But since Bobby V wont happen I think Jerry Manuel or Howard Johnson would be a worthy choice

[Benjamin Grimm]

metirish wrote: Fair point , it's not his fault he is getting old and declining , still I would cut him .

And who's your everyday first baseman? Marlon Anderson?

[Guest AG/DC]

I have no problem with giving him the first third. I just want to be clear on what we're looking for. More inspired play? Yup. More focused play certainly.

The problem with hunch management is it leaves players, I think, less than confident with what values govern the team. What they'll get praised for vs. What the'll get ripped for.

I would have liked to rip them for going down on 15 pitches the last two innings in Chicago.

[Theoldmole]

I'm not ready to jump ship on Willie yet.

Can't one of their outfielders move to first? Outfielders move to first all the time. They have four guys, when Alou comes back, who are credible starters in the outfield -- more credible as starters than Delgado at this point.

[Guest AG/DC]

Outfielders do move to first all the time. It's just that he weakest one --- Moises --- has never played there, and experimenting is less common at his age. None of them have played there.

[Guest sharpie]

I'm also for giving him the first third of the season. As to replacements, I think the Bobby Valentine ship has sailed. There are surely other smart fellows around.

Moises comes back in a few days which should be a real boon to the offense. Let Delgado bat seventh for a while in the hopes that he regains his stroke and stops grounding out to first all of the time.

I was pleased that the other night Sanchez was in the role that Heilman would have been in before.

[TransMonk]

mario25 wrote: Jerry Manuel has managed previously

And didn't do much better than Willie...a whole bunch of second place finishes with some pretty talented teams. The one time he did win the division he got outmanaged and swept by Lou Pinella playing small ball.

You can put me down for thinking that Manuel may be part of the problem. If there is a shake-up, may it start with him.

How many here think the 1999 shake up of coaches had an effect on the outcome of that season?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Well, we tried the whack-the-coach shakeup at the ASB last year when Rickey came in and Down went down. Didn't do nothin.

I'm not say Willie is the reason the team plays like shit half the time, but the team is playing like shit half the time.

[Guest AG/DC]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Torches & pitchforks? Look, we don't have poison the well on both ends here.

Is that a real metaphor?

Sorry, just trying to capture the tone of the early posts. I can't always be relied on this capacity.

Mid-season coach-whacks more typically go after instructors (pitching and batting coaches) than braintrusters (bench and thirdbase coaches), don't they?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

OK. But the image kinda makes the idea of holding WWSB responsible for this mess as crazy and irrational and rooting for it.

What do you think about the manager?

[Guest AG/DC]

Well, some of it is irrational. Blood in the water and sharks circling and such. Twenty games into the season, and I want an answer, not just a corpse.

I know they can do better than Willie. I don't see him righting this ship. I wrote above that I think the whole hunch thing leaves players at sea when adversity hits. I think the best managers instill core values, and try and get core players to embody those, so the other players feel that, if they're not hitting, as long as they walk the manager's walk, they'll be fine.

I think Willie lets on that he is pushing core values --- "Winners don't do that" and such --- but he's not. I think he's philosphically ambiguous and his players sense there's nothing but an insecure man behind the curtain of Oz.

The thing is, I kind of see Omar the same way. I think he's smart and a good judge of talent, but philosophically, he's just back and forth. I think Marty Noble was right about the Bannister trade. They say they want guys who know how to pitch and then go out and trade one for a raw talent and assume Peterson and staff can shape him. The Seo trade worked, let's try and repeat that. Oh, that didn't work. Let's never do that again.

I'm glad Willie's not a hotheaded showboat like Pinella or Bowa. That stuff embarrasses me. Once upon a time, I think, players respected him and felt he was fighting for them in his own way. Since the second half last year, though, I think they just think he's a pushover and they're on their own.

Who would I like? Stearns intrigues me. That's when the time comes. Now, I just want Willie to find himself and them never to ever lose again ever.

That makes me the irrational one.

[Fman99]

I think the best guy to replace Willie is anyone who is not Willie Randolph. Sometimes the change itself is the impetus, and not the change from a type A guy to a type B guy.

I think the time to do it was last November. :sigh:

[Guest AG/DC]

The more I think about about it, I think most successful managers have that player they mold and embody their philosphy in.

I think Casey's player was Berra. I think Hodges' was Seaver. I think Valentine's was Alfonzo.

And I think Willie's is supposed to be Reyes. And if Reyes is confused about how to carry himself, maybe that's the bad sign we should be picking up on.

Delgado has been mentoring Reyes recently. Hey, maybe he's the manager we need.