Veterans Committee HOF ballot

[Vic Sage]

nominees just announced:

Dick Allen
Minnie Minoso
Bobby Bonds
Thurman Munson
Ken Boyer
Don Newcombe
Rocky Colavito
Lefty O'Doul
Wes Ferrell
Tony Oliva
Curt Flood
Al Oliver
Joe Gordon
Vada Pinson
Gil Hodges
Ron Santo
Jim Kaat
Luis Tiant
Mickey Lolich
Joe Torre
Sparky Lyle
Cecil Travis
Marty Marion
Mickey Vernon
Roger Maris
Maury Wills
Carl Mays


Would you vote for any of them?

[stevejrogers]

Dick Allen
Yes

Minnie Minoso
Bobby Bonds
Thurman Munson
Ken Boyer
Don Newcombe
Rocky Colavito
Lefty O'Doul
Wes Ferrell
Tony Oliva
No

Curt Flood
Kind of. Larry Doby got in as a technicality "Pioneer & Executive" maybe Curt gets in that way.

Al Oliver
Joe Gordon
Vada Pinson
No

Gil Hodges
See answer on Torre

Ron Santo
Yes

Jim Kaat
Luis Tiant
Mickey Lolich
No

Joe Torre
They should put him in the Composite list. Wonder how many times a person can be on this particular ballot? 15?

Sparky Lyle
Cecil Travis
Marty Marion
Mickey Vernon
Roger Maris
Maury Wills
Carl Mays
No

[MFS62]

Dick Allen and Jim Kaat are the only ones I'd vote for on this list.

And I'd vote for Bill White from the executives' list shown in the other thread on this subject.

Later

[Guest KC]

I change my mind a lot about the HOF, but today I'm kinda in the "hey, if you
didn't get in you didn't get in and the commitee thing is a bunch of hooey" camp.

[Guest Mr. Zero]

a bunch of these guys put up better ten year stretches than Dave Winfield ever dreamed of. Dick Allen, statistically speaking, should be in. a case might be made for Tony Oliva, though he'd be penalized for his 13 year career. Kaat was solid for a long time, but had only a few terrific seasons. O'Doul as an emissary of the game? Unless he's the namesake for that non-alcohlic beer.

[nymr83]

Torre SHOULD get in when he retires as a manager. none of these other guys belong in and the hall is just too watered down as is.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I won't argue that Gil Hodges deserves it, but I hope he gets in.

Joe Torre has to go in as a manager. And he was a pretty good player too, but not a Hall of Famer.

[Frayed Knot]

My best argument would go for Ron Santo

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Santo and Allen. Kaat maybe?

Not sure Flood deserves the HOF, but he oughta get something.

[soupcan]

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Mickey Lolich & Maury Wills get a vote from me.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Wills alreday got an MVP he didn't deserve, now we wanna enshrine him?

[soupcan]

I've always had a soft spot for and stolen bases and coke heads.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, I'm down on Wills.

A lof of guys who slugged through the offensively lean years of the sixties deserve a second look now that we've mathematically figured out the league context thing.

[Guest cooby]

I would vote for Torre as a manager too, we can hardly deny him that

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I won't argue that Gil Hodges deserves it, but I hope he gets in.

Yup�

[Valadius]

The following are in in my book:

Dick Allen (Overlooked 60's slugger)
Gil Hodges (Duh)
Jim Kaat (283 Ws)
Lefty O'Doul (Lifetime .349 BA, 4th all-time)
Al Oliver (2,743 hits)
Ron Santo (Duh)
Luis Tiant (How did he never make it in?)

Leaning towards them:

Bobby Bonds (.268 BA all that scares me)
Ken Boyer (Great hitter, great fielder, and a Met too!)
Rocky Colavito (Again, only the .266 BA scares me)
Mickey Lolich (1971. Damn what a year)
Minnie Minoso (Come on. Come on!)
Tony Oliva (He needed to play a couple of more years, but a great player)
Mickey Vernon (Good hitter, great fielder)
Maury Wills (Who can match him and Rickey's single season totals now?)

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

And this is why the Hall of Fame is so diluted. Putting all those guys in would bring it closer to being the Hall of the Very Good.

[Guest Edgy DC]

1971 was a great year for Lolich.

It was a year.

[RealityChuck]

Would vote in:

Dick Allen -- one of the great hitters of his time
Carl Mays -- a great pitcher, and the start of the "Curse of the Bambino"
Tony Oliva -- the best pure hitter of the 60-70s. If he hit home runs, he'd be in already.
Marty Marion -- The best shortshop of his era.
Thurman Munson -- He'd be in already if he hadn't been killed.
Sparky Lyle -- top reliever of his time.

Close:
Rocky Colavito -- Just short
Joe Torre -- should get in as a total of his manager/playing career.
Gil Hodges
Ron Santo
Jim Kaat
Mickey Vernon
Cecil Travis
Maury Wills -- changed the way the game was played, but career just short of HOF.

[Farmer Ted]

Jim Kaat and Luis Tiant go on my ballot.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

]Carl Mays -- a great pitcher, and the start of the "Curse of the Bambino"

A phony curse isn't a good enough reason for induction, and of course Mays is remembered for something even worse. He was a great pitcher without a doubt, though I'm not good at handicapping pitching Hallworthiness.

I'm plowing through THE PITCH THAT KILLED right now -- has anyone else read this? Terrific story that ought to be made into a movie.

[Frayed Knot]

Let's make lists of who should NOT go in.
In a number of cases they would be shorter.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Bruce Boisclair.

[soupcan]

Bruce Boisclair should be there as 'ugliest Major Leaguer ever'

[Guest Edgy DC]

OK, I'll bite.

]Dick Allen -- one of the great hitters of his time

Although probably beset by emotional issues, was also one of the great clubhouse cancers of his time. Already mentioned was his short career.

]Tony Oliva -- the best pure hitter of the 60-70s. If he hit home runs, he'd be in already.

Big if.

]Marty Marion -- The best shortshop of his era.

So was Rey-O.

]Thurman Munson -- He'd be in already if he hadn't been killed.

Agreed (although there's a strong case that he was fading so fast so as to suggest he would go on to detract from his legacy). But the issue is "should" he be in, not "he would if." We're working with another big if here.

]Sparky Lyle -- top reliever of his time.

I like Lyle. He wasn't dominant like the later relievers with the shorter workload, but he was pretty dominant for a lefty at Fenway, with the bigger workload. (God paid him back and sent him to Yankee Stadium for the heart of his career.) I don't Hall-of-Fame like him though. Three All Star teams? Put in Gossage, then we'll talk.

I like hybrid cases like Torre's and Hodges'.

[MFS62]

]Thurman Munson -- He'd be in already if he hadn't been killed.

No. No. A thousand times no.

Clemente (an analogy some Munson supporters use) was put in because at the time of his death he had already accumulated enough credentials for enshrinement.
At the time of his death, based on roughly similar career at bats, Munson's career totals were similar to an American League first baseman named Bruce Bochte. No, not catcher Bruce Bochy, Bruce Bochte.

Who?
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Bruce-Bochte.shtml
That's my point.
Here are Munson's stats;
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Thurman-Munson.shtml

They may not be an exact match, but they are close enough.
Would you vote for Bruce Bochte for the Hall of Fame?
Hardly.
Then Munson doesn't belong either.

And, Munson didn't have a great throwing arm. In fact, when he knew the runner would have beaten the throw, he more often than not just held onto the ball. If he had played in the run-run NL of the time, he would have been moved to first base and been just another player like... Bruce Bochte.

Later

[Guest Mr. Zero]

Oliva didn't not hit home runs. hit like 220, and 32 one year. but he really played only 11 full seasons out of an 13-14 year career. not even 2000 hits.

[Guest Edgy DC]

MFS62 wrote: They may not be an exact match, but they are close enough.

No, they're not.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Which isn't to say that I support Munson's enshrinement. I don't.

[MFS62]

="Edgy DC"] ="MFS62"]They may not be an exact match, but they are close enough. No, they're not.

I was looking for players with similar career at bats. I used a hard copy of Baseball Encyclopedia.

I should have remembered Baseballreference.com

Here is their list of similar catchers. I don't think you would think of any of them as Hall of Famers as players either:

Terry Steinbach (903)
Jason Kendall (902)
Tim McCarver (898)
Manny Sanguillen (896)
Jack Clements (890)
Smoky Burgess (883)
Terry Kennedy (881)
Wally Schang (878)
Elston Howard (875)
Sandy Alomar (873)

Most basebal fans have heard of most, it not all, of them.
But when arguing this issue (Munson to the Hall) with Yankee fans, the mention of Bruce Bochte usually stops them in their tracks.
And that is a good thing.


Later