IGT - 7/2/03 - Mets at Yankees (Soler / Wright)

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

It's Maine's turn in the Norfolk rotation tomorrow too.

[Elster88]

Too pissed off to talk some Rickey-speak.

[Gwreck]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: It's Maine's turn in the Norfolk rotation tomorrow too.

That's why I'm so damn puzzled by the "insistance"** that Oliver start.


** Judging from failure to have him pitch tonight.

[Methead]

OK, if those guys can put up 8 runs in an inning, so can we.

Of course... we'd still be losing at that point. But who's counting?

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

] Anyone besides me get the impression when Wright skied out in the 2nd that we were going to regret not cashing in on those add-on runs? Of course you did although it turns out to hardly matter.

Really underscores the Valentin at home play though. I like Wright with 'em loaded and 1 out so much better.

I'm convinced we'd still be batting were it not for that.

OTOH, Game 1 of the 2000 WS, 6th inning, would still be going on now and preventing this game from even happening if Timo F. Perez ran the bases properly at MFY Stadium.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Interesingly, by switching to Fat Bastard here, the Torre is deeper into his bullpen tonight than Willie is.

[Gwreck]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: OTOH, Game 1 of the 2000 WS, 6th inning, would still be going on now and preventing this game from even happening if Timo F. Perez ran the bases properly at MFY Stadium.

They were showing that on YES today. Except that they took the FOX video and dubbed over Kay and Sterling (presumably from the radio broadcast of the game). YES Network, proving themselves to be a bunch of tools.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Gwreck wrote: ="Johnny Dickshot"]It's Maine's turn in the Norfolk rotation tomorrow too. That's why I'm so damn puzzled by the "insistance"** that Oliver start. ** Judging from failure to have him pitch tonight.

I don;t care who pitches tomorrow and don;t presume to know why or why not they considered Maine.

I mean, if they planned for pedro to get hurt and Soler to cough up 8 runs in the second inning that'd be poor planning.

Interesting though as Joe & Jon were saying -- Torre managed this like a game he had to have and WWSB didn't. Of course Joe had to have it and WWSB didn;t, necessarily.

[Methead]

Seriously.

Even if you don't HAVE to slide into home... why not slide anyway?

[Gwreck]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Interesting though as Joe & Jon were saying -- Torre managed this like a game he had to have and WWSB didn't. Of course Joe had to have it and WWSB didn;t, necessarily.

That's what makes me so damn furious. Maybe he "didn't" have to have it but that shows, in my opinion, a serious disrespect for Mets fans (ie. not recognizing the importance of this particular series).

[Frayed Knot]

]Really underscores the Valentin at home play though. I like Wright with 'em loaded and 1 out so much better.

When 8 straight guys reach base, including 2 XBH, you should score more than 4 runs.
It's back to the bad base-running/giving away outs we were talking about the other day.

[Gwreck]

Eli Marerro has never played third base in a major league game, before tonight.

[stevejrogers]

Gwreck wrote: ="Johnny Dickshot"]Interesting though as Joe & Jon were saying -- Torre managed this like a game he had to have and WWSB didn't. Of course Joe had to have it and WWSB didn;t, necessarily. That's what makes me so damn furious. Maybe he "didn't" have to have it but that shows, in my opinion, a serious disrespect for Mets fans (ie. not recognizing the importance of this particular series).

You're joking right?

11 game lead. Yeah its against a team over .500 and all, but still, ITS AN AMERICAN LEAGUE TEAM!

This isn't the Phillies, Nationals, Marlins, or Braves. Or even Cards, Reds, Dodgers or anyone we'd be fighting for a WC spot with.

By the way, that does jive with what Joe Torre actually thinks about these series as well, hell maybe I am listening to the radio too much and reading the columnists too much, but the bottom line is simple

THIS SERIES MEANS SQUAT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!

[Gwreck]

SteveJRogers wrote: You're joking right? 11 game lead. Yeah its against a team over .500 and all, but still, ITS AN AMERICAN LEAGUE TEAM! This isn't the Phillies, Nationals, Marlins, or Braves. Or even Cards, Reds, Dodgers or anyone we'd be fighting for a WC spot with. By the way, that does jive with what Joe Torre actually thinks about these series as well, hell maybe I am listening to the radio too much and reading the columnists too much, but the bottom line is simple THIS SERIES MEANS SQUAT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!

Everybody knows this series means "more" to each team's fans. This is especially true, in my experience and opinion, to those living closest to New York.

In the standings, it's just as much as any other, as you've indicated.

Considering the circumstances -- we've lost 6 of our last 8 -- that's it's one of the best 5 teams in baseball -- and the Subway Series factor -- it should be managed like an important, rather than a meaningless game.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I see where you're coming from, Gwrek, but IMO, WWSB's doing the right thing. I mean, do we REALLY want him managing per the fans' wishes?

[stevejrogers]

Another small Beltran HR

[Gwreck]

I think that's a fair point, and no, we obviously don't want him pandering to the fans.

Still, the failure to give Soler and Bell the hook was really frustrating, regardless of the circumstance. 11 game lead or whatever, I think the team needs to play to win every game. That always seems to be Willie's strength -- that he gets the players to play hard. I'd like to see him manage that way, too.

I realize my belief about the failure to use Oliver is in part based on Ed Coleman telling me on WFAN that Maine is available to be called up to start.

I really am not all that worried about the blowout per se. They happen occasionally. I just think some embarassment could've been prevented.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Of course it was frustrating. So what? The Mets have bigger fish to fry.

Beltran bats leadoff tomorrow.

[Elster88]

Gwreck wrote: ="Johnny Dickshot"]Interesting though as Joe & Jon were saying -- Torre managed this like a game he had to have and WWSB didn't. Of course Joe had to have it and WWSB didn;t, necessarily. That's what makes me so damn furious. Maybe he "didn't" have to have it but that shows, in my opinion, a serious disrespect for Mets fans (ie. not recognizing the importance of this particular series).

Actually, my guess is that most fans do recognize the importance of this series....which is virtually nothing.

Joe Moron was the one who didn't realize it the actual importance of this game. Amazing too that he failed to get the point, even as his partner spent a good five minutes explaining it to him. Actually it's not surprising, knowing him.

These fools went on tangents the whole game. It must have been annoying to them that the action on the field kept getting in the way of their chat.

[Frayed Knot]

I thought Willie was just too slow to replace Soler - although once he did I had no problem opting for Bell there rather than scrapping all plans for tomorrow and the rest of the week by getting Oliver up at all costs.
Then, once Bell was shelled also, it made the most sense to keep him in there even if it meant taking the bullets.

I mean, yeah, Morgan was correct here in that Torre stopped the bleeding by yanking Wright earlier than Willie yanked Soler - and that was certainly part of the difference. But the bigger part is that Villone stuffed us for 2+ innings while Bell turned out to just throw more gasoline on the fire.
Only so much you can do when your pitchers decide to suck on a given night.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]I just don't get it. We pull Reyes, but put in a key reliever (Bradford)??

I don't get how the whole willie-didn't-try-hard-enough angle. Complain that they put in a key reliever (they're all important at one level or another) and complain that they didn't put enough in.

It's a blowout. You try to get through it with as little damage as possible. You want back in the game, let the batters hit you back in.

[Gwreck]

By pulling Reyes, Willie was pretty much suggesting that the hitters weren't going to put us back in the game. I can see the argument for giving the relievers some work but my perception was that the 'pen was better served by letting Oliver take 3 innings or so rather than using Bradford (and Feliciano).

[Guest Edgy DC]

But they were committed, for whatever reasons that, to starting Oliver the next day.

I don't want to get into justifying those reasons, because that's not the point. Once you make that commitment, it's the last possible thing any manager considers to bag the plan for tomorrow because you need tomorrow's starting pitcher to pitch mopup in a 10-run game today. Every team everywhere goes into Sunday with a plan about keeping whoever is starting on Monday out of the game, and needing mopup innings in a blowout is certainly no reason to scrap that plan.

[metirish]

No point having Oliver pitch yesterday as is being pointed out here, Pelfrey pitched Saturday so is not an option for tonight, but as the Daily News is reporting today Pelfrey is being withheld from the Futures game next weekend in Pittsburgh,the thiking is that he might get the start against the Marlins Saturday.The Mets have a dooubleheader Saturday to makeup for the opeing series home stand rainout versus the fish.

[MFS62]

="metirish"]No point having Oliver pitch yesterday as is being pointed out here, Pelfrey pitched Saturday so is not an option for tonight, but as the Daily News is reporting today Pelfrey is being withheld from the Futures game next weekend in Pittsburgh,the thiking is that he might get the start against the Marlins Saturday.The Mets have a dooubleheader Saturday to makeup for the opeing series home stand rainout versus the fish.

Rats!
I may have to rethink my KTE.
I was going to do something "different" (to keep my streak of weird KTEs going).
Later

[metirish]

should have noted the report said Oliver and Maine could get that start.

] Pelfrey may get chance BY ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Mike Pelfrey's major-league debut may come this weekend against the Marlins - whether or not Pedro Martinez overcomes hip inflammation and can make a start before the All-Star break. Because of a rainout during the season's opening home stand, the Mets have a doubleheader Saturday against the Marlins at Shea and have at least one starting vacancy. Pelfrey, who had a solid showing at Double-A Binghamton two days ago with special assistant Sandy Johnson watching, will get strong consideration for that start, along with Norfolk's John Maine and long-reliever Darren Oliver. Two of those three pitchers could be called upon Saturday if Martinez is shut down until after the All-Star Break. Pelfrey regularly hit 96 mph with his fastball while limiting New Hampshire to one run and two hits in seven innings. He still needs to refine his curveball, but that might not prevent the Mets from promoting him. An MLB staffer said the league wanted Pelfrey to participate in next weekend's Futures Game for prospects in Pittsburgh, but officials were told he was unavailable because of potentially looming major-league duty.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Jon, relax.

[Elster88]

A lot of writers are failing to realize that today's game means as much in the standings as yesterday's/

[Guest Edgy DC]

="gwreck"]In the standings, it's just as much as any other, as you've indicated.

="elster"]A lot of writers are failing to realize that today's game means as much in the standings as yesterday's/

Technically, today's game means more. And the Yankee game less. Beating an American League team lifts you up a half a game, while beating a National League team lifts you up a half game and knocks a potential rival down a half in the wildcard standings. Beating a National League East team lifts you up a half game and knocks a potential rival down in both the division standings and the wildcard standings.

Now, in the case of Pittsburgh, that's pretty much theoretical, as they are extremely unlikely to find themselves in a rivalry with the Mets for a wildcard slot anytime soon. But a good fire chief knows there is a time to think less about saving a house and more about keeping the fire from spreading to the next house. Similarly, a good manager knows there's a time to think less about coming back in a blowout and more about keeping as many personnel, and as many key personnel, as possible available to fight the next day.

The Mets weathered this game with their top three relievers unused, their mopup guy/spot starter ready to make his spot start today, and nobody injured. Yeah, more aggressive managerial tactics might have given them a better chance to get back in the game, but it is extremely likely that they would have proven nonetheless futile, but rather made it a six- or seven-run difference, rather than a ten-run difference.

I'm glad the Yankees are behind us. More important things to accomplish.

[seawolf17]

But Edgy, we lost to the Yankees.

Wait... what's that? We're still in first place? But we lost to the Yankees. Doesn't that override the standings?

What? We have an eleven game lead? And the best record in the National League? Yeah, but we lost to the Yankees. Doesn't that really mean more than some meaningless standings?

What's that? If the season ended today we'd be in the playoffs and the Yankees wouldn't be? That can't be right. You must be reading something wrong. Yankee fans say they're always better, so it must be true.