IGT - Mets @ Phillies - Wagner sucks

[metirish]

Wanted to get this up early.....Wagner adds some drama to the series..

] Wagner rips into former Phillies' teammates PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Billy Wagner has come out firing more than fastballs at his former team. Wagner closes for the Mets now instead of Philadelphia, but the opinionated lefty has thrown some gas on the rivalry between the two best teams in the NL East. Wagner told The Philadelphia Inquirer for Sunday's editions that he was not well-liked in the Phillies clubhouse, his former teammates were waiting to see him fail and left fielder Pat Burrell called him a "rat" during a midseason team meeting last year. The division-leading Mets open a three-game series Tuesday at second-place Philadelphia. The Phillies wrapped a three-game series Sunday with San Francisco and the Barry Bonds circus. "Now it goes from Bonds to Wagner," Phillies starter Brett Myers said in mock indignation. Forget the heckling Bonds received. The Phillies fans will surely stuff the fence over the visitor's bullpen where Wagner will sit within earshot of the nonstop abuse. "Bring on Billy Boy," Phillies manager Charlie Manuel said, laughing. Wagner saved 59 games in two seasons with the Phillies before signing a free-agent deal with New York, but sometimes made as much noise with his mouth as he did with his 100 mph fastball. Last July, Wagner said the Phillies "ain't got a chance" of making the playoffs and criticized his teammates for not having enough intensity, saying they quit when they got behind. That led to a team meeting where Wagner told the Inquirer he felt it was "24 against one," and added that Burrell called him a "rat" during the meeting. Also, Wagner said he didn't believe the Phillies supported him and felt that he deserved to fail, especially in a late-season loss to Houston where he gave up a ninth-inning, three-run homer to Craig Biggio in an 8-6 loss. The Phillies finished just one game behind National League wild-card winner Houston. "That wasn't a good comment," Phillies pitcher Cory Lidle said before Sunday's game. "I don't know what was going on in his mind when he said that. That wasn't the case. We needed him to pitch well down the stretch if we wanted to make the playoffs." Lidle said Wagner's description of the team meeting was "completely false" and he never heard anyone call the reliever a rat. Manuel understood why the Phillies would be upset with the comments because he took them to the media. "A lot of that should have stayed in the locker room among the players," Manuel said. Manuel, though, believed the quotes would add to the hype of the important early series. So does Manuel think Wagner would be booed now that the former fan favorite is on the other side? "There may be a good chance," he said, smiling.

[Guest sharpie]

Was already posted as "Phuel for Phillies Fire" down below

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Gotta say it -- I'm not a big fan of Wagner myself.

[metirish]

]Was already posted as "Phuel for Phillies Fire" down below

Damn, didn't see that, sorry..

[Frayed Knot]

Wagner's never been one for keeping his mouth shut all that much.
He used to raise a few hackles when he was with Houston; speaking out about what mgmt should do, or about what they just did wrong, etc.
Stuff like that is usually tolerated to the degree of the player's save pct.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

JD - "Gotta say it -- I'm not a big fan of Wagner myself."

That's because you're blinded by your man crush for Duaner Sanchez.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Wagner's a good closer with some nasty stuff. I do wish he would keep his mouth shut rather than rile up the opposition with inflammatory remarks.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

No, really. I think we paid him too much money, for too long, and heaved a ton of unrealistic expectations on top of him to boot. It's as if we were paying him for his brand rather than his results because, though very good, they're hardly bulletproof.

I've ruined more jockeyshorts watching him than any Met pitcher this year.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

I understand your reservations. He has certainly proven that none of the closers are perfect. He has definitely demonstrated a propensity to make games far more exciting than they should be, or at least more exciting than we would like. Personally, I'm just thankful that he's not Braden Looper.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I'm not crazy about Wagner either, but to be fair I can't remember a Mets closer that didn't make me squirm more often than I liked. Looper, Benitez, Franco, Orosco. Maybe I had full confidence in Skip Lockwood or Tug McGraw, but that's so far back I can barely remember my feelings when they were on the mound.

[Frayed Knot]

(the creator of this thread should probably change the subject heading by this point)

The problem, of course, is that vast quantities of Met fans (aided and abetted by vast quantities of media types) so convinced themselves that no closer in history could possibly be as bad as Armando Benitez that a new one - especially one with as good a resume as Wagner - would give us oodles of stress-free 9th innings almost as a matter of course. What they fail to realize is that big Armando and little Billy have been virtual statistical twins during their common times as closers and that the notion they concocted in their heads that, while Armando's WHiP/ERA/Sv pct, etc. were perfectly acceptable, his slips from perfection inconviently all occured at inopportune times; as if there exists an opportune time for a pitcher who, by definition, works almost exclusively in tight 9th inning games to surrender runs, baserunners, etc.
But we all know that the grass is always greener on the other side and so Wags will continue to get a pass for a time beyond when others would have been skewered for the same "crimes". I've gotten a kick out of hearing fans say - as early as the first week of the season - that Wagner is the best closer the Mets have ever had. Oh really?

The problem with the contract is that closer types tend to be less consistant and long-lasting than starters, making his contract more of a risk than say Glavine's was back when. So just hold your hats and hope that he's a reasonable semblence of what he's been over the last few years for as many of the next few as possible. He'll likely continue to say dumb things now and then regardless and I expect it to be tolerated to the extent of his performance.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

To a great degree, I think the discomfort and our squiring just comes with the job.

[metirish]

If I hear Bill Madden form the Daily News say one more time that this just proves Wagner is no Rivera I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart......I can see it now, Mets up a run with Met killer(or used to be) Burrell at the plate and the Phillie fans letting loose on Wagner, nice move Billy.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Rockin' Doc wrote: To a great degree, I think the discomfort and our squiring just comes with the job.

I agree.

I'm with JD, though, on the belief that we payed him too much for too long.

[Gwreck]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Gotta say it -- I'm not a big fan of Wagner myself.

I think I'd be a lot more tolerant of this sort of stunt if he was not blowing as many saves. Yeah, I know it's early. But he makes a lot money, etc. [insert the points made by others here].

[Guest Edgy DC]

Here's my 19th advocacy for teams (particularly my team) to have no shyness about allowing two (or more) relievers of a similar level of ability to divide up the closer responsiblities. Choose your ninth-inning pitcher based on the best guy available, sure, but when that's close (as it often is), take into account things like freshness and matchups.

Look at these two guys:

Name	BAA	OBPA	SLGA	OPSA
Sanchez	.121	.213	.136	.349
Wagner	.190	.301	.333	.634

There's one good and one dazzling pitcher so far

Name	BAA	OBPA	SLGA	OPSA
Sanchez vs. RHB	.105	.190	.105	.295
Wagner vs. LHB	.077	.143	.308	.451

That, on the other hand, is one shocking beast. use them in tandem. One guy falters a little and maybe the other guy's role grows a little. That strukes me as a little more sustainable than hoping Sanchez can stay perfect forever.

Competition has to remain open. How long can a Sanchez or Roberto Hernandez outperform a Wagner or Looper, while being told that he can't have a bigger role because the other guy was signed to be a closer but hasn't shot himself in the foot. Don't wait for the closer to fail consistently before giving away his job. Share it out like fishes and loaves.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I agree! I remember when Danny Frisella and Tug McGraw shared the closer role. Lefties coming up? McGraw! Righties? Frisella!

Same with McDowell and Orosco. Sanchez and Wagner would be a perfect lefty/righty combo. (And really, the Mets could have done the same with Franco and Benitez for a few years there.)

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yup, yup, dixie cup.

[Zvon]

Edgy DC wrote: Share it out like fishes and loaves.

I like the sentiment.............
I remember the days of Tug and Danny myself. And Tug and afew other pitchers along the way.
Itll never happen as long as Wagners on the team.
For reasons Im sure Bret will eventually bring up.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]If I hear Bill Madden form the Daily News say one more time that this just proves Wagner is no Rivera I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart......

Trust me from experience. This doesn't work.

This series has me biting my nails already.

[Theoldmole]

19 ITG notes already? I started to wonder if it was an afternoon game and no one had told me.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

This thread does have a misleading title.

[soupcan]

metirish wrote: ... I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart..

Someone tell irish we call it a 'TV' in the States.

No worries from me about this series.

-I think we've got a real solid team.

-Pedro in game1, Glavine in Game 2, Trachsel's gonna get on track sooner or later who's to say it's not now?

-WE are the team with one of the best records in the majors. THEY are chasing US.

-I like playing a good team that's playing well. It shows how good my team is and makes for an exciting game.

C'mon people! LET'S GO METS!

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Opposing Trachsel on Thursday will be their Floyd, who's been more off track than our Trax, and perhaps as much off track as our Floyd.

Two out of three would be very nice. It would knock that magic number down by four pegs.

[Zvon]

soupcan wrote: No worries from me about this series. -I think we've got a real solid team. -Pedro in game1, Glavine in Game 2, Trachsel's gonna get on track sooner or later who's to say it's not now? -WE are the team with one of the best records in the majors. THEY are chasing US. -I like playing a good team that's playing well. It shows how good my team is and makes for an exciting game. C'mon people! LET'S GO METS!

I agree.
We have the rotation set up just right and the Phils have been over achieving. The Mets are up for it.
If it becomes a homer fest cuzza the small park I think the Mets can outslug em.

I dont want to overlook this series, but Im actually more worried about the Brew-crew coming up next. Our pitching woes will come round again. I just hope the Mets dont take the Brewers for granted. They have a good team.

But first, lets knock the Phils down like a cheap set a bowling pins.
(lol, I like the magic number comment Yancy-What exactly is thier magic number at this point?)

[Willets Point]

soupcan wrote: ="metirish"]... I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart.. Someone tell irish we call it a 'TV' in the States.

No it's charming for him to use his own lingo.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Zvon wrote: (lol, I like the magic number comment Yancy-What exactly is thier magic number at this point?)

Standings 2006 thread

[soupcan]

Willets Point wrote: ="soupcan"] ="metirish"]... I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart.. Someone tell irish we call it a 'TV' in the States. No it's charming for him to use his own lingo.

We do that and the next thing you know he'll be singing The Star Spangled Banner in Gaelic!

[Elster88]

Will it be 122 after Thursday's game??? Time will tell.

[metirish]

]We do that and the next thing you know he'll be singing The Star Spangled Banner in Gaelic!

After the stir the Spanish version caused last week I think a Gaelic version would be a cool idea.