Houston Astros vs. Chicago White Sox - World Series 2005

[metirish]

[Frayed Knot]

As more "invincible" closers become anything but.

The label on Jenks was certainly premature.
And I could wonder if these past few weeks mean that Lidge is now "damaged goods" and someone who is "proven" to be untrustworthy for the rest of time in post-season ... but I've beat that angle into the ground too many times around here so I'll just leave it alone.




On to other subjects ... I'm not sure if I can remember a team which shuffles so many players not only to different positions but between IF and OF positions.

Burke, Biggio (in previous years anyway), Berkman, Vizcaino, Lamb & Bruntlett have all switched at various times - and many of them on a semi-regular basis - between the big and small gloved spots.
It certainly gives Garner a bunch of choices to make.

[Zvon]

[Guest SwitchHitter]

The trouble with Oswalt is sometimes he'll take a couple of innings to settle in and with these guys, that's not gonna work.

[metirish]

He's 3 - 0 in the post-season, I'll take him for game three.

[Zvon]

Frayed Knot wrote: Burke, Biggio (in previous years anyway), Berkman, Vizcaino, Lamb & Bruntlett have all switched at various times - and many of them on a semi-regular basis - between the big and small gloved spots.

Cuz they are team players and gamers.
The game needs more players of that ilk.

Especially Bags and Biggs, who could have opted for the money ahead of staying in Houston.

[metirish]

]Especially Bags and Biggs, who could have opted for the money ahead of staying in Houston.

Both are great guys I'm sure but Bagwell made $18,000,000 this season and for his career he has pulled down $108,765,000.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bagweje01.shtml

Biggio had made $73,015,500 from the Astros..

[Zvon]

.....that cameraman had to be running down the 3rd base line rite behind Posednik to get that back shot of him approaching the plate. Great shot, but until Pos touches the plate he should not be on the field.






I protest the game.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Frayed Knot wrote: As more "invincible" closers become anything but. The label on Jenks was certainly premature. And I could wonder if these past few weeks mean that Lidge is now "damaged goods" and someone who is "proven" to be untrustworthy for the rest of time in post-season ... but I've beat that angle into the ground too many times around here so I'll just leave it alone. .

The Great Mariano (TM John Sterling) blew his first big postseason game as a closer

I hope no one puts Lidge in Benitez type comparisions as Benitez was blowing games for a few years with both Orioles and Mets

Steve

[Zvon]

metirish wrote: ]Especially Bags and Biggs, who could have opted for the money ahead of staying in Houston. Both are great guys I'm sure but Bagwell made $18,000,000 this season and for his career he has pulled down $108,765,000. http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bagweje01.shtml Biggio had made $73,015,500 from the Astros..

Both decided to take smaller $$$ deals to stay with Houston.

In the state of todays game, that still makes them some pretty BIG bucks.

[Frayed Knot]

]Cuz they are team players and gamers. The game needs more players of that ilk.

It's not just a question of attitude or having "team players", it's about having guys with the sort of skills that can work in different places.
In a way it can be a sort of good news/bad news deal. The good is that it often gives you a bunch of versatility for late inning moves. The bad is that that versatility means you rarely have strong defensive players at any one spot; sort of a bunch of 'jack of all trades - master of none' types.
- Berkman doesn't really shine anywhere he's played
- Burke is a 2nd baseman playing LF and it showed today
- Biggio did them a big favor moving out to first CF and then LF when they signed Kent but he was barely competent out there and really hurt him with his arm

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

"I think the taste is no longer there..."-McCarver just before the Walk Off homer on wheither the Pujols HR was still affecting Lidge

Mac still has a knack for these things, flashing back to 4/26/1986

http://www.leaptoad.com/mets/gamedetail.php?gameno=3858

Hojo vs Worrell:

"...Mets need a long ball (Hojo tags ball into stands) AND THEY JUST MIGHT HAVE IT!"

Steve

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Oh and, Dennis Eckersley and Goose Gossage, both considered two of the top 3 (with Mo) "money" closers ever have been tagged with crushing postseason HRs (two WS cappers (one a true capper, the other pretty much the capper) to the same guy)

I wouldn't be putting any "choke" or "Benitiez" label on Lidge JUST yet...

Steve

[Guest Edgy DC]

]I hope no one puts Lidge in Benitez type comparisions as Benitez was blowing games for a few years with both Orioles and Mets

Yeah, also saved a couple of hundred.

It's this belief in the myth of Benitez's particular blowing quality that got us into Looper City this year.

I wouldn't be putting any "choke" or "Benitez" label on Benitez. I'm stubborn.

[MFS62]

Some insight from Jeff Brantley on ESPN overnight radio.
He said that Lidge has a great fastball and a great slider. But sometimes he "falls in love" with one and stops throwing the other. He added that (I paraphrase - I was more than half asleep) - major league hitters can catch up with even the best fastball when they know what's coming.

Later

[metirish]

That's hardly "insight" from Brantley, it's the same tired bullshit that ex-players use,you could ask ten such experts and nine would give you that clich� answer...

[Elster88]

Zvon wrote: ="Willets Point"]Awesome game, awesome series so far. I love baseball. ditto.

Ditto.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Great series thus far. Too bad nobody cares since neither the Yankees or Red Sox are playing.

[Guest sharpie]

I agree. This whole postseason has featured some great baseball.

[Willets Point]

Rockin' Doc wrote: Great series thus far. Too bad nobody cares since neither the Yankees or Red Sox are playing.

Sounded like folks on the Southside cared. Didn't they say that no one cared (outside of New York) in 2000 too? It seems that they always find some way for no one to care.

[Centerfield]

Armando Benitez was not a choker.

This was something I wrote on this topic sometime early in the 2003 season.


Myth: Armando Benitez sucks.

I believe that this sentiment is more of an exclamation uttered in the heat of the moment rather than an actual criticism of Armando. Even the harshest critic will admit that since he has taken over the reigns as closer for the New York Mets, few have been more successful than Armando. During the last three years, Armando has converted 90% of his save opportunities. Only 13 pitchers have recorded 100 saves since 1999. Of that group, only Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman have better save percentages. This guys is the goods...no doubt about it.


Myth: Armando Benitez may be a great closer, but he can�t hack it in the Post-Season.

Because of the overwhelming success he�s had in recent years, critics cannot realistically say that Armando hasn�t developed into one of the top closers in baseball. However, a good number of people believe that despite his recent success, Armando has demonstrated an inability to duplicate such success in the post-season. They argue that his strong regular seasons have been followed by meltdowns in October. True? Let�s take a look....

Now, it is important to note here that proponents of this theory often cite to Armando��s post-season performance while pitching for Baltimore. This, of course, is a logical fallacy. If the argument is that dominant regular seasons are followed by underwhelming post-season, we should only examine those post-seasons that follow dominant regular seasons. His underwhelming post-seasons in Baltimore were to be expected, as he was, for the most part, an underwhelming regular season pitcher. Not so for his days in New York. As a Met, he�s been dominant in the regular season. Did that dominance carry over? Or was there some dropoff? To test this theory, we look at his post-seasons that followed his dominant regular seasons. Two such examples exist.

In 1999 Armando pitched 9 innings in the post-season and allowed one run. Though he was charged with a blown save, it was during a game in which he entered in the 8th inning and allowed an inherited runner to score. Armando did not allow a run in that game. All in all, it is clear that Armando�s excellent regular season was followed by an excellent post-season. The theory, does not appear to hold water in this instance.

In 2000, Armando Benitez pitched 9 innings and, this time, allowed 3 runs. Armando stumbled in this post-season as he converted only 2 of 4 save opportunities. We arrive upon the two games that provide the basis for this theory. Clearly, there has been a dropoff from regular season performance to post-season performance. Unfortunately, this �trend� is the result of two games. Now, perhaps this sample is enough to convince some that Armando has an inability to succeed in the post-season. For me, this sample is simply not large enough to be convincing.

In total, Armando has converted 3 of 6 post-season save opportunities and has an ERA of 2.00. We all remember similar arguments being made about Randy Johnson��s inability to succeed in October...and what he did to such arguments in October of 2001. Or perhaps I am unconvinced because this �dropoff� in performance is not limited to Armando. Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner and Byung-Hyun Kim (closer for the 2001 World Champs) have combined to convert 6 of 11 save opportunities. Are we to believe that Armando, Trevor, Billy and BK are all chokers? Or is it possible that with more time, their numbers would even out with their peers who have had success in October? Draw what conclusions you will, but keep in mind this one nugget of information when considering small sample size. As I write this piece, Rey Ordonez�s batting average is nearly twice that of Mike Piazza��s. Big Rey also has more HR and RBI....


Myth: Armando Benitez Sucks in September.

Fueled by the two September meltdowns against Atlanta in 2001, the theory has been offered that while Armando Benitez will mow down opponents from April through August, come September he will meltdown. This theory, is also false. Since 1999, Armando has converted 24 of 28 saves in the month of September for a save percentage of 86%. During that same period, he has converted 18 of 20 saves in April for a percentage of 90%. The big dropoff is, as the numbers indicate, simply untrue. Again, the critics seem to be basing their �trend� upon two games while ignoring the others in which Armando was successful. They have forgotten Armando�s strong Septembers during the stretch drives of 1999 and 2000. The rest of us, and the statistic books, have not.


Myth: Armando Benitez Sucks in �Big Games�.

And now, we have a last ditch effort by the Armando Critics to incorporate all of his memorable blown saves into one category...the famous �Big Game�. Essentially, the basis of all of the Armando criticism can be boiled down to four games: Game 2 of the 2000 NLDS (JT Snow HR), Game 1 of the 2000 WS (Yankees) and the two September games against the Braves in 2001. Unfortunately for the critics, since two were in the post-season and two were in the regular season, these failures of Armando do not fit nicely into one category. And so, they made one up. The ever-changing �Big Game� or alternatively, the �Big Spot�.

The problem, of course, with this theory, is that its proponents must define �Big Game� and show that Armando�s performance drops off in these types of situations. Clearly, simply blowing a save in a big situation cannot establish a trend. Even Mariano Rivera has blown saves in two series deciding games (Game 5 against the Indians in 1997 and Game 7 2001 WS)...and no one could argue he has a history of big game failures. Rather, in order to establish any sort of trend, we must find out how many big games Armando has pitched in, and what his measure of success has been.

And thus, we encounter the fatal flaw with this theory. The critics do not define their universe...they don��t give you a number for how many �big games� Armando has pitched in. Now, I don�t contest that these four games were �big�. But how many big games have there been? And how has Armando performed in these �big� spots? Clearly, if these four games were the only ones the Mets had played in recent history, their case would be made. But such is not the case. The Mets played a bundle of big games in September of 1999...and Benitez was brilliant. In that same Braves series in 2001, Benitez has converted saves in the two prior games. Benitez has pitched in �big spots� in the post-season where he wasn�t in a position to convert a save...shouldn�t he be credited for these? Have we forgotten that neither the Grand Slam Single or the Agbayani Game-Winner would have been possible without scoreless innings from Armando? Had he allowed a run and taken the loss, wouldn�t these be offered as �Big Game Failures�?

Despite the failure of the critics to offer a number so a ratio can be measured, let��s define �Big Game� for them for the sake of argument. It appears that the proponents of this theory are combining his post-season blown saves with his September blown saves. So, let��s take a look at his success rate during this subset of games. Since 1999, Benitez has converted 27 of 34 save opportunities in September and the post-season for a save percentage of 79%. Now, there is some dropoff from his overall save percentage. Whether this difference is enough to be statistically significant may be up for debate. But it is clear that 79% is a far cry from the �meltdown� people have suggested.


Myth: Benitez beats up on the bad teams but struggles against the good ones.

Again, untrue. Benitez has converted 13 of 15 saves against Atlanta and the Yankees for a save percentage of 87%.

Next.


All in all, it seems as if the criticism of Armando Benitez is unwarranted. Rip into him if you like when he blows a save...it is the fan�s right to criticize. And no one can expect to be a closer in New York without hearing it from time to time. But make sure that your criticism is accurate. Don�t criticize for things that are myth. It�s tough enough to be a closer in this town as it is...they take a lot of heat for their actual failures. They shouldn�t have to take heat for failures that exist only in the minds of ill-informed fans.

[Centerfield]

Brantley's an idiot. Accusing someone of "falling in love" with one pitch or another is idiotic. Let's say a pitcher throws a fastball by a hitter for strike 1. If he throws a slider on his second pitch that gets hit for a HR, he will be accused of changing pitches "even after the hitter has demonstrated he can't hit the fastball". If he throws another fastball that gets hit for a HR, he "falls in love with one pitch." The problem is usually not the pitch selection, it's pitch quality. But analysts would sound awfully boring just repeating "well, he needs to make a better pitch..."

Couple other notes...am I the only one wishing Konerko would stop hitting these post-season HR's and driving his cost up?

Am I the only one wishing Billy Wagner wasn't out there blowing saves like Jenks and Lidge and thereby driving his price down?

Exactly twice in this post-season, I got the feeling fans were too giddy in the ninth inning...as if the thought of a blown save never entered their minds....Game 5 of the NLCS and last night.

Jose Freakin' Vizcaino. As if I needed to be reminded of that. I still say Turk made a good pitch there...

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

It seems that the media always declares a national apathy for the post season once the Yankees are eliminated. It's much like network televisions coverage of the PGA; they seem to assume the viewing public only wishes to watch and hear about Tiger Woods, no matter how far out of contention he may be.

This has been an exciting post season thus far. The first two games of the World Series have been particularly enjoyable games to watch.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

sniff

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Can someone please get Scarlett a tissue? I think she has a cold.

[Elster88]

]Jose Freakin' Vizcaino. As if I needed to be reminded of that. I still say Turk made a good pitch there...

Elster88 too! Elster88 was surprised it took McCarver so long (about 30 seconds) to jam that one down his throat.
_____________________________
This post had the designation 138) Rickey Henderson

[Elster88]

Rockin' Doc wrote: It seems that the media always declares a national apathy for the post season once the Yankees are eliminated. It's much like network televisions coverage of the PGA; they seem to assume the viewing public only wishes to watch and hear about Tiger Woods, no matter how far out of contention he may be. This has been an exciting post season thus far. The first two games of the World Series have been particularly enjoyable games to watch.

Ratings are 30% down. It probably is in part due to the Red Sox and the Yanks not being in it, thought that's most likely because there are less people in New York and Boston watching, not because of a larger lack of interest at the national level.

[metirish]

One of the good things about Wilma is that it's keeping Lou Piniella out of the TV Booth...Chicago is the second biggest market in the Country and Houston the fourth, this series should do ok and if it extends to seven games with the same quaility as the first two games then it will do just fine.

[MFS62]

metirish wrote: One of the good things about Wilma is that it's keeping Lou Piniella out of the TV Booth...

How?
Do you mean the weight of Lou's fat arse is going to keep the State of Florida from blowing away?
JK
I know, he probably stayed home to be with his family.

Later

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Okay, I am gulity of listening to too much talk radio when it comes to Benitez, and mostly the anti-Armando talk started after the 2001 final series of the season meltdown (and I kind of took a break from the Internet Met Community at that point for about two years)

It is possible, now that I think of it, that alot of the Anti-Benitez sentiment in the media came from what he did to Tino as an Oriole, and at that point, 2001, the media had enough of a sample size to go after him.

Now that I think of it, you never heard ANY of his Baltimore meltdowns in arguments for Benitez NOT being the closer over Franco, seemed like nearly 100% of media/callers wanted Benitez to be the official closer in 1999

But I'd rather use the Eck, Goose and Mo examples of closers considered "The Best Ever In The Big Spot" who have very epic "meltdowns" on their ledgers

Steve