Tommy John, 1943-2026

[Edgy MD]

He may not be in the Hall of Fame, but he's sure in my Hall of Fame.

[Frayed Knot]

When the Yanx had their Old Timers' Game a few weeks back, T.J. sent a message to be read which was essentially him saying 'Goodbye'. It was known he hadn't been well for a while now but that pretty much confirmed that the end was just around the corner.

[Chad ochoseis]

30 minutes ago, Edgy MD said:

He may not be in the Hall of Fame, but he's sure in my Hall of Fame.

 

No idea why he's not in yet. All ten of his closest comps on BBRef are in, so he has a strong case even before giving him a well-deserved bump for being Dr. Frank Jobe's guinea pig. 

[Frayed Knot]

Maybe my biggest memory of Tommy was the utter look of disgust on his face towards Yanqui manager Bob Lemon (and on the world in general) upon being PH for in the 4th inning of Game 6 of the '81 World Series. The score was tied at 1-1 and the Yanx had runners on 1st & 2nd with two outs. The strategy didn't work as PH Murcer flew out leaving the runners stranded and the Yanx with five innings to cover with their pen.

It didn't go well.  George Frazier gave up three runs immediately in the 5th, Then Ron Davis (Ike's dad) and Rick Reuschel (I don't remember him being a Yank) made a mess of the 6th and the Dodgers went on to a 9 - 2 rout for the WS win.

 

Side note: That loss, charged to George Frazier, was his third of the Series. He wasn't the first pitcher to lose three WS games in one year but he was the first to do so while actually trying to win. The previous guy with three WS losses was Claude Preston 'Lefty' Williams of the 1919 Chicago White Black Sox

[Edgy MD]

With all the drama around Ike Davis' strange career, I had forgotten that he was Ron's son.

[Edgy MD]

Also, I don't disagree with TJ for his rejection of that stratagem.  He was a Hell of a pitcher in 1981.  He had been an All-Star in three straight seasons before that, and probably should have been one that year as well. 

He was money down the stretch in the second half and in the post-season up until then also.

I don't know what Lemon was thinking, but he tended to manage like he was afraid of Steinbrenner's hot breath coming down his neck.  That was two or so days after Steinbrenner's elevator fight, too.

[Frayed Knot]

56 minutes ago, Edgy MD said:

I don't know what Lemon was thinking, but he tended to manage like he was afraid of Steinbrenner's hot breath coming down his neck. 

Probably. It was like Lemon thought of that opportunity as his last best chance to grab a lead. But that's a ridiculous conclusion, especially when you're the home team, there's five full innings left to go, and your PH of choice is a 35 y/o bench player by that point of his career. In short, Lemon panicked.

Murcer would go on to take just 164 more ABs in his career spread over the '82 & '83 season.

 

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That was two or so days after Steinbrenner's elevator fight, too.

Supposed fight. I always thought it was more probable that he punched a wall in frustration and made up the elevator fight thing to make himself look like a tough guy (remind you of anyone?). There's zero evidence of the fight except for George's story and, remember, he was the 'convicted' half of Billy M's born/convicted liar statement that led to his (2nd? 3rd?) firing.

[Gwreck]

3 hours ago, Chad ochoseis said:

No idea why he's not in yet. All ten of his closest comps on BBRef are in, so he has a strong case even before giving him a well-deserved bump for being Dr. Frank Jobe's guinea pig. 

The peak is pretty low.  He had 4 or 5 really good years and a whole lot of ok/pretty good.  Makes the counting stats look good (and that’s what the comp scores on BBRef are heavily based on) but not a lot of greatness.

And the more modern stats of WAR and ERA+ are not particularly kind to him either for comparison purposes.

As for the surgery…I’d be inclined to give that bump to Dr. Jobe’s candidacy over John’s. 

 

[Frayed Knot]

Agreeing with GWreck in that I never thought the eponymous surgery should be a factor in his HoF worthiness. It made him more famous but not a greater pitcher.

[smg58]

I would argue that 26 seasons of being a good starting pitcher counts for something, even if he was more pretty good than very good for most of them.  

[cal sharpie]

I met him and had a pleasant conversation with him. He had written a memoir and found himself outside of my office. He hung around with me and several others for a bit. It was a long time ago and I can’t recall anything in particular but that he was very nice.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, I don't care if you're 100 points better than average in one season, or one point better than average in 100 seasons — your 100 points gets you my Hall.

[Gwreck]

It probably also doesn’t help that there are a large number of not-particularly-close-call HOF starters that roughly overlapped with John’s career:  Seaver, Carlton, Gibson, Jenkins, Niekro, plus Perry, Blyleven, Marichal, and Ryan.  John compares quite poorly to all of them.  He looks somewhat better (but still lacking) when compared to Don Sutton or even Jim Kaat (and Kaat is not what I would point to as a great example of a hall of famer).

Interestingly, John was not someone who inexplicably fell off the ballot early (like a Whitaker or Lofton); he got a full 15 year look, getting between 18 and 31% of the vote each year.  He’s also been on 5 veterans committee/eras ballots too.  

[Edgy MD]

Howie Rose speculated on the air that at least a generation and probably more of baseball fans have grown up first thinking that "Tommy John" was the name of a pioneering surgeon, before only later learning that he was in fact a ballplayer, and a hell of a ballplayer.  His broadcast partner Keith Raad then chimed in with a small amount of embarrassment that he was one of those fans growing up with that misunderstanding.

[Edgy MD]

W	L	W-L%	ERA	G	GS	GF	CG	SHO	SV	IP	BB	SO
6	3	.667	2.65	14	13	1	3	1	0	88.1	24	48

Tomás Juan in the post-season.

 

[Benjamin Grimm]

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Howie Rose speculated on the air that at least a generation and probably more of baseball fans have grown up first thinking that "Tommy John" was the name of a pioneering surgeon, before only later learning that he was in fact a ballplayer, and a hell of a ballplayer.  

And there's another generation that thinks "Tommy John" is a brand of underwear.

 

 

 

 

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

That Dodgers jersey with thin shoulder stripes is something else. 

[Edgy MD]

I was thinking that too.

TJ also looks on that card like the model for pitcher silhouette avatar in the lower right corner.