Who will history regard as the 22nd manager of the Mets?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Since I somehow have found myself as an unofficial recorder of Mets history, I have to decide whether Carlos Beltran should be regarded as one of the managers of the Mets.



I think I know which way I'm leaning, but I feel like starting a poll that has nothing to do with voting on newspaper covers.

[stevejrogers]

Whomever manages opening day.



Precedence with Wally Backman, Arizona Diamondback manager and Bill Belichick as the HC of the NYJ.



Not to mention scores of phantom players called up to big league rosters, or even postseason rosters, whom don't get chronicled in both official and unofficial indexing of All-Time rosters due to never participating in an official game.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Guest

[G-Fafif]

Carlos should get italics at the bottom of the list, but not be part of the list.

[stevejrogers]

Sad to bring it up, but it strengthens the point, despite piloting the Mets through Spring Training before dying tragically less than 2 weeks before Opening Day, Gil Hodges doesn't get credit for being an MLB/Met manager for 1972.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Dr. Whom strikes again.

[Edgy MD]

Carlos is one of only seven Mets managers to win as many games as he lost.

[nymr83]

=stevejrogers post_id=29892 time=1579202523 user_id=57]
Sad to bring it up, but it strengthens the point, despite piloting the Mets through Spring Training before dying tragically less than 2 weeks before Opening Day, Gil Hodges doesn't get credit for being an MLB/Met manager for 1972.

[Edgy MD]

Because the record of who has been manager doesn't really have to be fixed to a season.

[Frayed Knot]

Luke Walton, who coached the Golden State Warriors for like half a season whilst Steve Kerr was sidelined with serious back issues, is NOT listed as ever being a head coach for GSW because they consider

him to be merely as the interim rather than as the titled coach. Every game that season, whether under the direction of Walton or Kerr was credited to Kerr's record which, appropriately enough, sounds

like a system that was concocted by Simple Minds.

It's totally fucking ridiculous but that's how the NBA handles it.

[Edgy MD]

It's also how the MLB handles it. The Yankee wins and losses under Don Zimmer whilst Joe Torre was going through cancer treatments are credited to Torre.



But just because they have it wrong, don't mean we have to. As far as I'm concerned, a game won while a manager is off to see his son graduate from college or while the manager has been ejected should be credited to the substitute with the lineup card. Rube Walker (I think it was Walker) should get credit for the games following Gil Hodges heart attack.



Revising the record to reflect these wins and losses by substitutes would be very illuminating. Actually, just reporting out the data without MLB necessarily revising the record would be interesting.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: It's also how the MLB handles it. The Yankee wins and losses under Don Zimmer whilst Joe Torre was going through cancer treatments are credited to Torre. But just because they have it wrong, don't mean we have to. As far as I'm concerned, a game won while a manager is off to see his son graduate from college or while the manager has been ejected should be credited to the substitute with the lineup card. Rube Walker (I think it was Walker) should get credit for the games following Gil Hodges heart attack. Revising the record to reflect these wins and losses by substitutes would be very illuminating. Actually, just reporting out the data without MLB necessarily revising the record would be interesting.

B-R has done that with known historic instances, including several instances late in John McGraw's run with the Giants, but the difference is that those are cases where it was assumed that the original manager/coach will return. No reason to do that here, where Beltrán gets credit for wins and losses that he has no actual direct past or future involvement with.

[Benjamin Grimm]

My inclination, and according to the poll results I'm very much in the minority here, is to list Beltran as the 22nd manager, with a lifetime record of zero and zero. I'm not sure yet how I'll do it, and it's not really my number one priority in life, but that's what I think I'll do. Although he'll never manage a game from the dugout, he's been doing the off-season duties of a manager for 77 days, and for those 77 days he's been referred to as "Mets manager". It's really not quite the same as calling Michael Wacha a "Mets pitcher" which won't be true until and unless he pitches in a regulation game.

[G-Fafif]

Appointed, never served.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

Yeah he "counts" as a manager, hired and fired just like so many others, he just served in months there were no games on the schedule

[G-Fafif]

Manager-designate, the Bob Livingston of the New York Mets.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-impeachment/livingston-quits-speaker-designate/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-impeachment/livingston-quits-speaker-designate/

[bmfc1]

Per Mike Puma, the looming presence of Steve Cohen is impacting the Mets managerial search:

https://nypost.com/2020/01/20/mets-fear-of-future-owner-steve-cohen-is-taking-over-manager-search/https://nypost.com/2020/01/20/mets-fear-of-future-owner-steve-cohen-is-taking-over-manager-search/

[bLOCKQUOTE]there is concern that if the Mets hire somebody who wasn't originally considered for the job, it will look bad to Cohen, reflecting poorly on a front office that will be in limbo once the ownership transfer is complete.[/bLOCKQUOTE]

My opinion: the thought process in November isn't necessarily the same as it is 3 weeks before spring training starts. Maybe you want a veteran manager, such as Dusty or Buck because they have a lot of experience so they can step in and start right away because they've done this many times. Or maybe you want someone who knows the organization, such as Luis or Tony because they know the organization and there is a quick turnaround. Regardless, that was then, this is now and this is a unique situation.

[Benjamin Grimm]

http://leaptoad.com/mets/managers.phpUltimate Mets Database: Mets Managers



The rest of the world may disagree, but I'm listing Carlos as number 22 and Luis as number 23.

[kcmets]

Either way seems fine to me, even 22a and 22b.

[Frayed Knot]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: http://leaptoad.com/mets/managers.phpUltimate Mets Database: Mets Managers The rest of the world may disagree, but I'm listing Carlos as number 22 and Luis as number 23.

I agree that a manager who is named and then un-named, even when no games played in between, is a different category than one who serves as an interim for a few games due to manager sickness/suspension/whatever.

Now one could argue that the interim should be considered the official manager as well, but I think the officially named one certainly makes for the better case.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Press release from the Mets today identifies Rojas as the 23rd manager.

[Edgy MD]

Pow.

[RealityChuck]

If they consider Beltran as a Mets manager, they need to consider Bill Belichick a coach of the Jets.



And https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/huberju01.shtmlJustin Huber would be a Met under that standard.

[Edgy MD]

I totally consider Belichick a Jets coach.



Pretty good one, too.

[stevejrogers]

And further confirmation from the 2020 Media Guide that lists Beltrán in-between Calaway and Rojas.

[G-Fafif]

=stevejrogers post_id=44560 time=1598380229 user_id=57]
And further confirmation from the 2020 Media Guide that lists Beltrán in-between Calaway and Rojas.

[G-Fafif]

http://www.faithandfearinflushing.com/wp-content/uploads/46EC6C28-4AD0-4962-8E76-E91FB4FC29B3.jpeg>

[kcmets]

I didn't know until that just NOW!!! that all the team media guides are available

for free in .pdf form at this link:



https://pressbox.athletics.com/Publications/MLB%20Media%20Guides/https://pressbox.athletics.com/Publications/MLB%20Media%20Guides/

[Edgy MD]

Excellent!



Now, if only we can get them back to 1962!