In-Trade Thread

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: I think the difference since Madoff is that not the owners are unwilling to spend beyond a threshhold, but that they haven't (or at least) been able to, because their creditors placed spending limits to guarantee that at the end of the season, there'd be enough revenue to service their debt. I think that era is effectively wrapped up, and the next GM will land in a much stronger position than Sandy Alderson did.

Just curious. Why do you think that era is wrapped up?

[Ceetar]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Ceetar wrote: Anyway, my concern about the Familia deal is that they set a target and jumped as soon as the offer topped that. You're setting Familia's value yourself that way, rather than the market setting it. Of course, I'm not the one talking to the other teams and getting a sense of his value, as I'm sure the Mets have been doing for months. I also don't believe said other GM through Bowden that they would've topped Oakland's offer. I also peg the percentage that that GM is Jerry DiPoto at like 70%. The quote wasn't that they would've topped it, but that they were surprised the Mets never game them the chance. Regardless, why wouldn't you believe it?

I just don't believe that mystery GM was suddenly going to up his offer to a point that the Mets would've taken it over the Athletics. You really think it's more believable that the Mets ignored this person's offer over $3 million? And aside from that, if this GM was playing hard ball, he lost. The Mets believed his hard line that he wasn't raising his offer and he knew, as we all did, that there were other teams interested. You could say maybe this was some due to some unfamiliarity, but it's not like these three haven't been with the Mets for a while. The rumored deal was leaked well before it was official, if said GM really wanted Familia he could've picked up a phone at anytime to call the Mets.

that's just more believable than they took the first offer that let them offload the salary.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: Anyway, my concern about the Familia deal is that they set a target and jumped as soon as the offer topped that. You're setting Familia's value yourself that way, rather than the market setting it. Of course, I'm not the one talking to the other teams and getting a sense of his value, as I'm sure the Mets have been doing for months. I also don't believe said other GM through Bowden that they would've topped Oakland's offer. I also peg the percentage that that GM is Jerry DiPoto at like 70%. The quote wasn't that they would've topped it, but that they were surprised the Mets never game them the chance. Regardless, why wouldn't you believe it? I just don't believe that mystery GM was suddenly going to up his offer to a point that the Mets would've taken it over the Athletics. You really think it's more believable that the Mets ignored this person's offer over $3 million? And aside from that, if this GM was playing hard ball, he lost. The Mets believed his hard line that he wasn't raising his offer and he knew, as we all did, that there were other teams interested. You could say maybe this was some due to some unfamiliarity, but it's not like these three haven't been with the Mets for a while. The rumored deal was leaked well before it was official, if said GM really wanted Familia he could've picked up a phone at anytime to call the Mets. that's just more believable than they took the first offer that let them offload the salary.

You don't think another GM would up their offer if they felt they could top one they thought was inferior to theirs? The fact that Mets may not have called other interested teams to ask for a last/best offer seems crazy to me. And I didn't say the Mets "ignored" any offers and didn't point to anything that said they did, but if this GM was playing hardball and the Mets knew it, then you absolutely go back and say, "last chance here, or we trade trade him to someone else today." If they say no, great. But why not make that call? Why not mull over multiple best offers?

[Ceetar]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: You don't think another GM would up their offer if they felt they could top one they thought was inferior to theirs? The fact that Mets may not have called other interested teams to ask for a last/best offer seems crazy to me. And I didn't say the Mets "ignored" any offers and didn't point to anything that said they did, but if this GM was playing hardball and the Mets knew it, then you absolutely go back and say, "last chance here, or we trade trade him to someone else today." If they say no, great. But why not make that call? Why not mull over multiple best offers?

I think the Mets had a pretty good sense of the other offers, and in particular, their stance of the guy they'd need to go with them. If they'd already had the conversation with the Mariners and were convinced that diPoto was under no circumstances going to part with that one prospect they really coveted better than what Oakland was offer, why call them back? I mean, I agree I don't love that the Mets went the "come give us your best offers" rather than going out and repeatedly peddling him around and trying to get a bidding war up (if such a thing was going to happen) but I don't buy that this GM was actually going to top the offer.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: I think the Mets had a pretty good sense of the other offers, and in particular, their stance of the guy they'd need to go with them. If they'd already had the conversation with the Mariners and were convinced that diPoto was under no circumstances going to part with that one prospect they really coveted better than what Oakland was offer, why call them back?

Because this is how negotiation is done. This how you maximize returns on an asset. By making sure everyone has a chance to bid. If you don't understand that then you are not in a position to have an educated discussion on the subject.

Keep in mind, this is not the first time this has happened to the Mets. Remember, rival GM's also expressed their frustration that they weren't aware that Scott Kazmir was available. And say what you want about the trade, it's utter foolishness to pull the trigger without fully exploring that market first.

That trade was 14 years ago. Several regimes ago. The only constant is the name Wilpon.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Ceets, I know you're assuming DiPoto/Mariners, and they might be one of the teams who were in on Familia, but the Bowden quote referenced earlier cites sources from rival teams, plural.

Sources from rival teams interested in Familia told The Athletic’s Jim Bowden (subscription required) that they didn’t know why the Mets didn’t approach them one final time to give them a chance to top Oakland’s offer.

And MLBTR report on July 20th cites Tracky and DiComo as reporting the A's and Cubs were interested, but had competition. Bold is mine.

It seems these organizations are hardly the only ones with interest. At least seven or eight contenders have made contact regarding Familia, according to reports from Andy Martino of SNY.tv and MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo. The precise timeline of a deal isn’t at all clear, and will surely depend upon how talks progress. But the Mets are already “exchanging names” of potential prospects with interested teams, Martino adds.

That's a day before the Mets took the A's offer. And even if you love that A's offer, it makes all the sense in the world to call the other teams before you accept it and give everyone else a last shot to change your mind.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Guest

[HahnSolo]

I still don't get the rush to trade him 10 days before the deadline.

But I just keep coming back for the Justine Ward pics.

[Centerfield]

It makes all the sense in the world to call around again if your goal is to maximize your return.

It makes all the sense in the world NOT to call, if your goal is to unload the salary. The Mets would have been in an awkward position if another team offered more in return but demanded the Mets pay the salary.

Basically, once Oakland agreed to take on the entire salary, that was it. Their main goal was accomplished.

[bmfc1]

Plus, by making the trade on Saturday they saved an extra 10 days of that salary!

[Ceetar]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: And MLBTR report on July 20th cites Tracky and DiComo as reporting the A's and Cubs were interested, but had competition. Bold is mine. It seems these organizations are hardly the only ones with interest. At least seven or eight contenders have made contact regarding Familia, according to reports from Andy Martino of SNY.tv and MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo. The precise timeline of a deal isn’t at all clear, and will surely depend upon how talks progress. But the Mets are already “exchanging names” of potential prospects with interested teams, Martino adds. That's a day before the Mets took the A's offer. And even if you love that A's offer, it makes all the sense in the world to call the other teams before you accept it and give everyone else a last shot to change your mind.

yeah, it's the exchanging names bit that I keyed in on. That's consistent with how the Mets have operated under Alderson and I guess the same holds true for his lieutenants? You pick the guy you want, and if you can get him, you take him. I'm not saying it's a great way to operate, but under the same token, this is outside of the salary thing. If they liked another player better from somewhere else, they just as easily should've gone back and say "well, will you also pay the $3 million? We have another offer, are you going to let $3 million keep you from Familia?"

Maybe it's the three-headed GM thing. Maybe Sandy would've played it slower and gotten a slightly better return?

On the other hand, Oakland, currently, has a full head of steam. What happens if they go 2-6 the next week and decide they're not that close? and then the AL is basically decided and maybe none of the other teams think the price for another reliever just for the playoffs is as high as it was either. You cut the market in half.

But mainly what I don't buy is the salary relief theory. It makes a ton more sense that teams are valuing there prospects more than ever and that giving up a better one for the sake of a few million just isn't the move anymore. I think the money part of the equation is much lower than it was.

Centerfield wrote: It makes all the sense in the world to call around again if your goal is to maximize your return. It makes all the sense in the world NOT to call, if your goal is to unload the salary. The Mets would have been in an awkward position if another team offered more in return but demanded the Mets pay the salary. Basically, once Oakland agreed to take on the entire salary, that was it. Their main goal was accomplished.

hell, they could've traded him a month ago if all they wanted to do was offload the salary and get a warm body.

[nymr83]

Because this is how negotiation is done. This how you maximize returns on an asset. By making sure everyone has a chance to bid. If you don't understand that then you are not in a position to have an educated discussion on the subject.

that just isn't true. there are other ways to deal. you can take the used car dealer approach "this Familia is available now for these prospects but don't walk off the lot! i've got another guy ready to buy and Familia won't be here if you come back later!" which is to say artificially inflate the value and make the need to act now seem pressing before the other GM has the chance to call all the others sellers and see if he can get a better reliever for the asking price. i am not saying the Mets executed that strategy well, only that it is one of many strategies that someone (not them) could successfully employee.

[Centerfield]

Nymr83 wrote: Because this is how negotiation is done. This how you maximize returns on an asset. By making sure everyone has a chance to bid. If you don't understand that then you are not in a position to have an educated discussion on the subject. that just isn't true. there are other ways to deal. you can take the used car dealer approach "this Familia is available now for these prospects but don't walk off the lot! i've got another guy ready to buy and Familia won't be here if you come back later!" which is to say artificially inflate the value and make the need to act now seem pressing before the other GM has the chance to call all the others sellers and see if he can get a better reliever for the asking price. i am not saying the Mets executed that strategy well, only that it is one of many strategies that someone (not them) could successfully employee.

Hokey sales techniques aimed at uneducated buyers do not work on sophisticated GM's of Major League baseball teams. Billy Beane isn't going to fall for a sales pitch, follow Ricco into his office and sign the paperwork. Once a deal comes down the home stretch, a GM will explore all of his options, make sure that there are no better alternatives, then commit to the deal. This is basic due diligence, and the GM's of all teams do this.

Well, the GM's of the other 29 teams will anyway.

[seawolf17]

Centerfield wrote: Well, the GM's of the other 29 teams will anyway.

Just a matter of time until some radio comedian releases a prank call where Ricco agrees to trade deGrom for a dead squirrel and fifty bucks.

[A Boy Named Seo]

seawolf17 wrote: Centerfield wrote: Well, the GM's of the other 29 teams will anyway. Just a matter of time until some radio comedian releases a prank call where Ricco agrees to trade deGrom for a dead squirrel and fifty bucks.

That'll be on the last episode of "Who is America?" sandwiched between Palin and Cheney.

Seriously, the timing could not have been worse for the team for Sandy to have to step down, limping into the deadline with the tripod interim GM. With Familia, I wonder if this trade was a unanimous "YES" from the 3 GMs, or if 2 out of 3 liked it or what. Such a strange structure with 3 guys sharing the final call.

[Edgy MD]

Stupid cancer!!

[Centerfield]

I would guess Jeff Wilpon is in charge.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Stupid cancer indeed. I think if they end up trading Mesoraco, and if whatever team acquires him agrees to pay the rest of his salary, then it will appear that Jeff might be the new interim GM.

[Edgy MD]

The Reds already picked up Mesoraco's salary. The Mets are on the hook for Harvey's.

[A Boy Named Seo]

The Reds sent money to pay the difference in Mesoraco's salary, but both teams still have to write the checks every month, I would imagine. If so, I don't think there's anything stopping the Mets (or the Reds in Harvey's case) to ask their potential trading parter to pay the remaining salary for these guys themselves and pocket that ca$h.

[Centerfield]

Is Mesoraco a free agent? Or under control for more years?

[Edgy MD]

Devin is a free man at the end of the season.

I kind of wanted to make him a free agent after that GiDP in the ninth inning on Saturday.

[smg58]

Bobby Wahl got three strikeouts out of five batters faced in his Vegas debut.

I wasn't aware that we had seven better relief pitchers. Or is it eight?

[Edgy MD]

He'll get the call. Worry not.

[bmfc1]

Andy Martino has an update on which Mets could be traded by the deadline:
https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/whats-expected-for-mets-at-deadline-with-cespedes-future-cloudy/287304098

[G-Fafif]

Erstwhile coveted Oakland Athletic minor leaguer Will Toffey is now the No. 24-ranked prospect in the Mets system, according to MLB Pipeline. For comparison's sake, toast of New York Jeff McNeil is ranked No. 19, yesterday's winning pitcher Corey Oswalt is No. 14 and the top pick time forgot, Gavin Cecchini, is No. 18.

So who the hell knows?

[A Boy Named Seo]

G-Fafif wrote: Erstwhile coveted Oakland Athletic minor leaguer Will Toffey is now the No. 24-ranked prospect in the Mets system, according to MLB Pipeline. For comparison's sake, toast of New York Jeff McNeil is ranked No. 19, yesterday's winning pitcher Corey Oswalt is No. 14 and the top pick time forgot, Gavin Cecchini, is No. 18. So who the hell knows?

So in comparison, the Brewers just traded their #13 prospect plus a 20-year old Dominican pitcher "with promise" currently in the rookie league for 34-year old Joakim Soria ($10M salary next year/$1M buyout). No international $$ changed hands, though. Easy as it is to crap on the Mets, $1M in international signing booty seems to carry decent weight.

[Ceetar]

evaluating them by team ranking is tough though. Brewer's #13 prospect probably doesn't equate to Oakland's #13 prospect or to Yankees #13 prospect.

[ashie62]

How about this? They are likely all a load of crap

[Edgy MD]

I'd find that to be a less-than-scientific assessment.

[ashie62]

Edgy MD wrote: I'd find that to be a less-than-scientific assessment.

No doubt, I kinda expected a Keith Law 100 one or two make the rounds.

Silly me

Billy McKinney for Happ? really?