Dumping Harvey

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: yes, and none of these things suggest his teammates care about it.

Geez. We've all been on teams where there's one or two guys who act as though the rules don't apply to them and/or let you down when they don't show up on time and shit the bed as a result. You wouldn't necessarily blab about this to reporters covering your workplace, you get by anyway, but it's not as though it doesn't matter.

[smg58]

Harvey would have been non-tendered if the Mets were simply looking to dump him. Which means if they offer him to other teams, they are expecting value in return.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: yes, and none of these things suggest his teammates care about it. I didn't suggest that it was. I suggested that he has publicly and repeatedly demonstrated asshole behavior. You ask for evidence all coy-like and pretend it isn't raining from the sky. Come on. Don't jerk people around. Please.

then learn to read.

There is no reason to simply dump Harvey because of his personality, unless that personality messes with the clubhouse. It's just garbage piling on otherwise, and if he's got a 2 ERA into June he'll be guest-staring on TV shows again and living large or whichever 'nice' term for asshole the media feels like using that month.

Ceetar wrote: yes, and none of these things suggest his teammates care about it. Geez. We've all been on teams where there's one or two guys who act as though the rules don't apply to them and/or let you down when they don't show up on time and shit the bed as a result. You wouldn't necessarily blab about this to reporters covering your workplace, you get by anyway, but it's not as though it doesn't matter.

the headache/heartbroken no-show bit is the big one. I can't speak to what he was like the rest of the year, if his apology was accepted, if he was working hard, etc. If he continued that behavior, sure, a "let's get rid of this guy" makes sense. If you attribute a lot of his struggles to not being prepared, or not working hard enough, or coming in hungover regularly, or whatever, sure. But if he showed up and did his work the rest of the year, it feels foolish to release him based on 'character' with a new set of coaches.

He was late to a postseason workout in 2015 too. I'd be interested in knowing if there were other/lesser situations like this, where he wandered in late/hungover on non pitching days? It being Harvey though, I feel like someone would've blown that up already.

[Centerfield]

First off, there are plenty of instances where it looks like Harvey has acted in a way that fans and media found him annoying. But I've never heard one report, one suggestion, that he wasn't well liked by his teammates.

So yes, if one is going to make that statement, it should be backed up with specifics. If they are all over the place, citing 2-3 shouldn't be difficult.

But most importantly, dumping Harvey has nothing to do with whether or not he's an asshole. It's about the money. I don't know why we pretend it's anything but that. It's money.

[Centerfield]

smg58 wrote: Harvey would have been non-tendered if the Mets were simply looking to dump him. Which means if they offer him to other teams, they are expecting value in return.

Certainly. They realize there is value in a player with as much upside to Harvey. That's why there is value.

But that's also why you keep him. To possibly take advantage of that upside. And if it doesn't work out? Well then you write off that salary.

What do you get by trading him? A middle reliever? Then you lose that potential, and you get a middle reliever. Something that that is bountiful out there right now, with no personnel sacrifice necessary.

It's money.

[A Boy Named Seo]

I was the one that said that if Harvey was an asshole and his teammates didn't like working with him, then I'd understand a greater push to trade him.

After he was hungover and late to the park or missed his start, whatever it was, I remember teammates talking to the press about him having to get his shit right and show up for work. I read that as dudes being pissed at his behavior. Maybe they're all the best bros now, maybe they never stopped being best bros, I don't know. But that act will wear thin on anyone, if not corrected, employers at the top of that list. Especially if the ERA is still in the 6 neighborhood.

[Valadius]

Wasn't the incident where he was hung over and didn't show up to the ballpark related to him seeing an ex with someone else and losing it?

[Ceetar]

Valadius wrote: Wasn't the incident where he was hung over and didn't show up to the ballpark related to him seeing an ex with someone else and losing it?

yeah. he was 'heartbroken' supposedly. I don't think that was ever confirmed, though perhaps he just drank himself silly as a result.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

The guy embarrassed the club not for the first time, cost us a game back when a win was still relatively important, ended Wilk's career with the club which had repercussions down the food chain, and broke a rule every one of teammates didn't, and lied about it. What he's up all night for is not the issue and given the signs "drank" probably isn't the activity that knocked him out.

I suspect ballplayers actually have a certain respect for mates who can do all those things and still help the team but Harvey was about the worst player in baseball last year.

[Vic Sage]

Harvey's upside is as a #1 starter... that's not just "potential", like some unknown prospect, that's proven on the major league level. He's had injuries and major surgeries since. Maybe he can come back from that, maybe he can't, but its sure as hell worth more than some middle reliever to let some other team find out. Asshole? Sure... so? He's our asshole unless we dump him. He didn't hit anybody, or rob a bank. No overt racism or xenophobia, nor accusations of sexual abuse, as far as i know, which puts him in the choir boy section of jockhood and certainly makes him a better role model than our current president.

No, no "dumping". Sure, nobody is untouchable, but i'm not selling low on him just cuz he's a dick. And his teammates will love him up, down and sideways if he starts pitching great again and helps them win. So what's the rush? Ah, the money... well, we'll see if that's the reason based on what they spend this off-season.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm not saying they should trade him for a reliever now; I said we should have traded him when his value was higher. I'm mostly arguing this notion that his dickery and suckitude is some kind of benign thing for the club. Of course it affected teammates.

[Benjamin Grimm]

After 2015, I was thinking that the ideal time to trade Harvey was after the 2016 season, when he was still two years away from free agency. If he had had a 2016 like his 2015, he would have brought back a good return. But his 2016 ended in injury, so then the time to trade him was after his 2017 rebound, when he was still one year away from free agency. That didn't work out either. I don't regret that the Mets didn't trade him, because I think the only ideal chance to do that was after 2015, and that would have seemed, at the time, to be premature. My main regret in this area is that things played out in a way that there was never a good time to trade him in over the last twelve months.

[Centerfield]

Yes, JCL and BG are right. Right after the 2015 would have been the time to trade him.

But seriously, what benefit do we get from doing it now?

Nothing at all to back this up, but I feel like Matt Harvey is going to be solid in 2018. Maybe even better than solid. I hope it's for us.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Yes, JCL and BG are right. Right after the 2015 would have been the time to trade him. But seriously, what benefit do we get from doing it now? Nothing at all to back this up, but I feel like Matt Harvey is going to be solid in 2018. Maybe even better than solid. I hope it's for us.

But how could you trade him in 2015? it feels ambitious to have hoped the other existing SP depth would hold up and you could swap him for an equally (I think there was a unsubstaniated Mookie Betts swap) talented hitter feels risky for a team that expects to return to the playoffs the very next season.

I was tracking his pitch f/x stuff start to start last season for a while. It always felt like his pitches had movement still, he's still got some velocity. I'm just reading data, but it always felt like he was getting different results than he was used to in terms of break and such. That the pitches were still _good_ he just hadn't figured out how to make them effective.

So if you're looking for something to hope on, it's probably that. a year removed from the surgery, a season under his belt, a new pitching coach and a pitching-friendly manager, maybe they can focus those tools somewhat.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Well, my point was that in retrospect, after 2015 was the best time to trade him. I can't fault them for not doing that, because at the time it would have seemed premature. As I said above, if he had had a solid 2016 I would have traded him after that season. That would have been ideal.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm pretty sure you could find me advocating we move him while he was hot. Sure it was risky and a retrospective no-brainer. Pitching is unpredictable but Harvey being is a douche isn't.

[Vic Sage]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm not saying they should trade him for a reliever now; I said we should have traded him when his value was higher. I'm mostly arguing this notion that his dickery and suckitude is some kind of benign thing for the club. Of course it affected teammates.

it may have affected teammates, but not necessarily in any way that had any impact on their ability or willingness to play well, and they'll be thrilled as the dickens to have him if he pitches well once more.

[batmagadanleadoff]

In hindsight, there was no optimal time to trade Harvey. Grimm's post is spot-on. Sometimes, things just don't work out and there's nobody or nothing that deserves any blame. It's a shame, really. Harvey emerged as baseball's best pitcher for a few months, and it's all been mostly a terrible and sad downhill ride ever since, with another peak mixed in there in 2015. You can hope for Harvey to still have somewhat of a high ceiling, and maybe that'll come to pass. But it's probably likelier that Harvey's glory days are over.

[metirish]

Fuck the Wilpon's and all belonging to them

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: In hindsight, there was no optimal time to trade Harvey. Grimm's post is spot-on. Sometimes, things just don't work out and there's nobody or nothing that deserves any blame. It's a shame, really. Harvey emerged as baseball's best pitcher for a few months, and it's all been mostly a terrible and sad downhill ride ever since, with another peak mixed in there in 2015. You can hope for Harvey to still have somewhat of a high ceiling, and maybe that'll come to pass. But it's probably likelier that Harvey's glory days are over.

I mean, even like a 3.95 ERA would be very very useful for the Mets. the NL avg was 4.44 last season. 92.4 was the average fastball velocity, Harvey's was 94.3.

That's hardly glory days, and he'd probably still get criticized constantly for it, but it'd be very much worth what they're paying him.

[batmagadanleadoff]

metirish wrote: Fuck the Wilpon's and all belonging to them

Yeah. That, too.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: then learn to read.

Really? We're going there?

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: then learn to read. Really? We're going there?

Don't object to my posts by pretending I said something I didn't and then assert that I'm jerking you around. And don't tell me to google something that doesn't exist. there are no comments from his teammates, even anonymously, ragging on him and calling him an asshole. there's no real indication that he's bad for the clubhouse. I'd prefer not to drag a player's character down when discussing his value to the team, whether he's a good person or not.

[Edgy MD]

Centerfield wrote: But I've never heard one report, one suggestion, that he wasn't well liked by his teammates.

I've certainly gleaned several times that coaches and teammates were pissed at him. Much of it may require reading between the lines, and quotes out of context. While none of it is conclusive in itself, there is a convincing preponderance, including and especially Terry Collins choosing not to back him up at key times.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Don't object to my posts by pretending I said something I didn't and then assert that I'm jerking you around.

I didn't pretend anything. And you were jerking me around.

Please don't presume to tell me what to do.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: But I've never heard one report, one suggestion, that he wasn't well liked by his teammates. I've certainly gleaned several times that coaches and teammates were pissed at him. Much of it may require reading between the lines, and quotes out of context. While none of it is conclusive in itself, there is a convincing preponderance, including and especially Terry Collins choosing not to back him up at key times.

so you're saying this is your opinion, not that I can google it and drown in it.

I disagree.

[Edgy MD]

I never asserted anything as fact with regard to his teammates' feelings.

[HahnSolo]

Second hand, someone just told me MLBNetwork is speculating on a potential Harvey for Jurickson Profar deal. I have no idea how accurate that is.

Profar has thus far underperformed (to say the least), but he is still only 24.

[Ceetar]

HahnSolo wrote: Second hand, someone just told me MLBNetwork is speculating on a potential Harvey for Jurickson Profar deal. I have no idea how accurate that is. Profar has thus far underperformed (to say the least), but he is still only 24.

very inaccurate, if anything.

One of the Rangers beat guys suggested it as an idea earlier today, probably in response to the mostly unfounded "Harvey for a reliever" speculation that the Mets were willing to move him and need relief help (though not necessarily together)

Then someone mentioned that the Mets and Rangers had some lunch together briefly, and someone drew some lines between some dots and voila, rumor.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Ceetar wrote: Second hand, someone just told me MLBNetwork is speculating on a potential Harvey for Jurickson Profar deal. I have no idea how accurate that is. Profar has thus far underperformed (to say the least), but he is still only 24. very inaccurate, if anything. One of the Rangers beat guys suggested it as an idea earlier today, probably in response to the mostly unfounded "Harvey for a reliever" speculation that the Mets were willing to move him and need relief help (though not necessarily together) Then someone mentioned that the Mets and Rangers had some lunch together briefly, and someone drew some lines between some dots and voila, rumor.

Even though Ceeter knows more than anyone that this is #FakeNews, I've long had a crush on Profar, and mining very talented guys that other teams are giving up on is good idea here, I think.

Oh and Ceets, it's unlikely any teammate is gonna say to a beat writer, "that Matt Harvey is an asshole" but after he showed up late after partying, one anonymous teammate said this anyway:

https://nypost.com/2017/05/09/extremely-embarrassed-matt-harvey-begs-mets-for-forgiveness/

“Actions speak louder than words,” one Mets teammate said after Harvey apologized for skipping Saturday’s game, leading to the right-hander receiving a three-game suspension from the club. “We’ve all been out late, but you’ve got to show up. You’ve got to go to work.”

Sounds very David Wright-y, but it's still criticism from a teammate. That's not made up. It's not nothing.