Elster88

It doesn't matter how clear it is that tag wasn't there. If the throw beats you you're out. Ruiz wasn't even holding the ball.

Church was up there to bunt. Jesus.

I saw on the replay Sheffield was running as hard as he could but still got thrown out at second. But I missed where the ball hit. Was it off the wall? The top of the wall?

seawolf17 wrote: Screw that. I want Nick Johnson too, and Cristian Guzman until Reyes gets back. They can have Ryan Church back. I don't want Nick Johnson. There's enough guys on the DL.

PiggiesTomatoes wrote: You know what, Keith. I hope the Mets don't sleep well tonight. I hope someone busts some crap up in the clubhouse after the game. I hope someone goes off on the team to the beat reporters after the game. I understand the emotion, but I just don't think that would do any good. Would it make Valdez and Emil hit? Will Maine pitch better next game because someone breaks a bat in the locker room? Will it make Reyes heal faster? Will it make Sheffield younger? Will it make StevieJeets stop posting?

]1-4 against the Gnats and Pirats the last five games. Ugh. When you put it that way it sounds so terrible. But we are trotting out Emil Brown and Wilson Valdez. Can we really expect much better?

Have faith. They can push it to 6.

I'm not crazy right...the camera angle is different here? But I like it.

Can DeRosa catch?

Why must we say goodbye to anyone? Santos has a career .650 OPS in the minors in 2500 plate appearances. [url:vhtx2byo]http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=santos001omi[/url:vhtx2byo] He's 28 years old. He is what he is. We caught lightning in a bottle with him for a .770 OPS in 86 plate appearances, so send him back to the minors and let him come up for Schneider's next injury. The more I think about this trade the less I like it. I hope I'm wrong. I hope he keeps this up. But I don't think 28 year old .650 OPS minor league hitters often turn into good major leaguers. Switch my vote to hate. Maybe we can get by with him as a backup for 3/4 of a season and then get some catchers in free agency. But I think that third catcher will be necessary before the year is over. Maybe Omar has a trade for Joe Mauer in the works. They gave us Santana after all. But unless that's happening there's no reason to trade away a guy for nothing.

We've got three threads on this now. Who voted for like?

What happened to Nick Evans after he hit .100 in AAA?

Dislike. The only reason I don't hate it is because at the end of the day he's just a backup catcher that gets hurt too often.

="G-Fafif":1gewfzfa]Verizon Text Poll Question of the Day on CitiVision: What was the Mets' first home? The choices were Shea Stadium, Ebbets Field, the Polo Grounds. This is how Mets fans at Citi Field who participated answered: Shea Stadium: 7% Ebbets Field: 52% Polo Grounds: 41% That distant mournful noise you might have picked up during the broadcast was me crying. I wonder where the Text Generation got the idea that the Mets ever played in Ebbets Field.[/quote:1gewfzfa] It hurts, but you can't let it bother you. People are going to forget stuff. Especially stuff that happened before they were born. I hate the bandwagoners as much as anyone but does some 8 year old kid (yes, 8 year olds text) have to take a test to become a Met fan? Gwreck May 31 2009 05:06 PM Apparently they were playing Sweet Caroline in the 5th inning on Saturday. batmagadanleadoff May 31 2009 05:52 PM Re: Mets Educational System Failure ="G-Fafif"]Verizon Text Poll Question of the Day on CitiVision: What was the Mets' first home? The choices were Shea Stadium, Ebbets Field, the Polo Grounds. This is how Mets fans at Citi Field who participated answered: Shea Stadium: 7% Ebbets Field: 52% Polo Grounds: 41% "Mission accomplished", said Fred to Jeffie. Kong76 May 31 2009 06:25 PM holychicken May 31 2009 09:10 PM ="Gwreck":16k3o58x]Apparently they were playing Sweet Caroline in the 5th inning on Saturday.[/quote:16k3o58x] They played it during the Pepsi T-Shirt Launch. Somehow, that lessened the pain. A Boy Named Seo Jun 01 2009 01:19 AM ="G-Fafif":fo7zhztw]No Caroline unless unless I missed it. "Meet the Mets" solidly entrenched in the eighth inning. It and Parnell, I'd like to think.[/quote:fo7zhztw] Really? That's how it shoulda been forever. Do peeps sing it? TheOldMole Jun 01 2009 02:06 AM What's the genesis of Lazy Mary as a theme song? themetfairy Jun 01 2009 04:54 AM ="A Boy Named Seo":1ld4widy]="G-Fafif":1ld4widy]No Caroline unless unless I missed it. "Meet the Mets" solidly entrenched in the eighth inning. It and Parnell, I'd like to think.[/quote:1ld4widy] Really? That's how it shoulda been forever. Do peeps sing it?[/quote:1ld4widy] Yup� Peeps were singing John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2009 05:45 AM ="TheOldMole":26nrmdpw]What's the genesis of Lazy Mary as a theme song?[/quote:26nrmdpw] Italian heritage night back in the Franco-Valentine Era.

="Edgy DC":1hzp0dq7]="Elster88":1hzp0dq7]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1hzp0dq7] As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] Yes. That's what I was trying to say. That's why you don't always go long-term with the guy who is currently hot, no matter how much your manager loves him. I like your work LWFS.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] I do too. And that's a solid position. Long term, Castro's offense seems more predictable and dependable. The other factor, though, is his history of being unable to stay on the field. If the Mets trade off Santos and Castro goes down next week, don't believe for a second that folks wouldn't be calling Omar Minaya an idiot over that.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] All good points. That's why I wanted was to keep them all. I guarantee we'll be using a non-Schneider/Santos catcher for important at-bats this year. Mark it down! Gwreck May 31 2009 05:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":6yn42k0u]The Maine trade aside, this team has very rarely received max value for its resources in trade.[/quote:6yn42k0u] I think they traded high on Jae Seo; Mulvey/Humber/Gomez; Mike Jacobs and possibly Yusmerio Petit as well. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 31 2009 07:04 PM ="Gwreck":8dyaa9rn]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":8dyaa9rn]The Maine trade aside, this team has very rarely received max value for its resources in trade.[/quote:8dyaa9rn] I think they traded high on Jae Seo; Mulvey/Humber/Gomez; Mike Jacobs and possibly Yusmerio Petit as well.[/quote:8dyaa9rn] Forgot about those. Those were pretty big. (For whatever reason, Santana and Delgado have stuck in the quick-sorting portion of my Met brain as FA signings.) PiggiesTomatoes May 31 2009 09:08 PM It's not just the Mets that have a weak foundation, look through the minors. Aside from a Fartinez and a couple of arms, there's no pipeline for talent either, unless you think you can poach it from other organizations. Hell, what a colossal scramble to find an adequate replacement at SS while Jose heals. I don't think there's a set of metrics you could define in which Omar rates well. I sure have no love lost for Willie R., but the way his departure was handled was also an incredible cluster f. These are all reflections on Omar and Prince Jeff. If he didn't look so much like his dad, I'd sware he was a Dolan. Edgy DC May 31 2009 10:01 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 01 2009 11:24 AM This is getting desperately silly. On the Mets system --- where do they rank? What does "There's no pipeline for talent" mean? Aren't they all pipelines for talent? A "couple of arms"? Arms are valuable things. And many observers didn't have Martinez as the top hitting prospect in the Mets system, so I don't think that "aside from a Fartinez and a couple of arms" comment is true. No more true than of many other systems. As for decrying the scarcity of talent in the Mets system, that's a strange thing to call a GM out for in thread about a trade that adds minor league talent. "Collosal scramble to find talent at shortstop." How many teams kick back happily when their top two shortstops go down with injuries? What's the collosal scramble? They promoted one guy and acquired another. What "metrics" are you using to define Omar Minaya's rating? Are you really aware of several different metrics to rate general managers? There was nothing wrong with the way Willie Randolph was fired. A game ended and he was fired after it. I don't know why this keeps coming up. It's such a non-issue apart from your agenda. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2009 06:01 AM They went 19-9 in May (there's a metric) while missing almost half the roster wtih injuries and getting valuable contributions from guys Omar picked up on the cheap such as Cora, Reed, Hernandez, Sheffield, Parnell, Santos, etc. I'm no Omariphile, but the only duds the guy's set off since last year are Ollie (who's been hurt) and I suppose, Green. Thole looks like he just might hit enough to be next year's catcher. Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:12 AM http://www.omirsantos.com/ metsmarathon Jun 01 2009 09:20 AM um, yeah, i clicked on that link and got this message: ]The site you have requested has been blocked by the CONUS TNOSC due to hostile content. metsmarathon Jun 01 2009 09:21 AM that's the CONtinental US Theater Network Operations and Security Center... i don't know what's on that website, really, but now i'm very curious. also wary. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2009 09:24 AM It's one of those sites supported 90% by ticket broker and gambling ads Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:28 AM Yeah, it's packed with ads. It opens with this big fat paragraph: (I tend not to read big fat paragraphs.) I found out about it from an e-mail requesting a link exchange. ]OMIR GOODNESS! HE DOES IT AGAIN!! HOW CAN YOU SEND HIM DOWN WITH HIM PLAYING LIKE A ROCKSTAR?...SIMPLE, YOU CAN'T! NEW YORK -- Omir Santos was supposed to go back to the minors once Brian Schneider came off the disabled list. The catcher played so well that he forced the New York Mets to change their plans. Santos hit a game-ending single in the 11th inning and also homered in the fifth, leading New York to a 2-1 victory over the Florida Marlins on Friday night. Santos was rewarded after the game when the Mets traded backup catcher Ramon Castro and about $1.4 million to the Chicago White Sox for right-hander Lance Broadway, ensuring the rookie will stay with the club when Schneider is activated Saturday. � Mets trade Castro to White Sox "On a night like tonight, when Omir Santos plays the way he has, it makes the decision easy for us," said general manager Omar Minaya, who acknowledged being surprised by Santos' speedy progress. Gary Sheffield led off the 11th with a single to left off Brian Sanches (1-1), who threw over to first several times to check on the aging slugger with David Wright up. After Wright struck out -- smashing his bat when he reached the dugout -- Sheffield stole second and went to third when Ronny Paulino's errant throw went into center field. "We knew that he was trying to inch off and take a bag there," Marlins manager Fredi Gonzalez said. "He still has that capability in him. We just threw the ball away. We threw the ball out of the infield, and got ourselves in a situation nobody wants to be in." Edgy DC Jun 01 2009 09:36 AM ="metsmarathon":3gno5t9q]that's the CONtinental US Theater Network Operations and Security Center... i don't know what's on that website, really, but now i'm very curious. also wary.[/quote:3gno5t9q] I saw this in a Matthew Broderick movie. The codeword JOSHUA should get you around their security. Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:39 AM Before shutting down the page, I scrolled down and found this: ] We are big fans of Omir Santos and purchased the rights to this domain in the instance that Mr. Santos would like his own website for fans to enjoy. We would be thrilled if Mr. Santos would contact us in regards to acquiring this domain. Given his contract amount, we did not want a corporate conglomerate to take advantage of Mr. Santos. We await your contact, in the meantime, "Let's Go Mets!!" themetfairy Jun 01 2009 09:49 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":q4spi60n]http://www.omirsantos.com/[/quote:q4spi60n] Don't click the link unless you've already consumed plenty of coffee.... PiggiesTomatoes Jun 01 2009 05:51 PM ="Edgy DC"]What "metrics" are you using to define Omar Minaya's rating? Are you really aware of several different metrics to rate general managers? Wins, losses, trophies organizational talent rankings (last item is surely subjective). Measured against the above criteria, Omar has underperformed. He, along with Bernazard and Johnson, has failed to create a sound organizational foundation. I love the Mets, though, and have for going on 40 years. We can agree to disagree. I appreciate your perspective and have no intention into getting into a point-for-point back and forth. You know what they say about arguing on the Internet. ;-) Edgy DC Jun 01 2009 06:01 PM OK, so you claim wins as a metric in your first sentence and then close with a graphic claiming wins are irrelevant. I'm no Minaya cheerleader. But I do want to deal in facts. What organziational rankings are we referring to? It just seems clearly from this transaction that he's set up to lose no matter (a) which transaction he chose, ( which catcher he moved, and (c) how it shakes out. The guy is being called ugly shit like idiot and moron and the logic is set up so there's no way out of it for him. PiggiesTomatoes Jun 01 2009 06:39 PM No mas. You win.

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1yjs99m9] As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does.[/quote:1yjs99m9] Yes. That's what I was trying to say. That's why you don't always go long-term with the guy who is currently hot, no matter how much your manager loves him. I like your work LWFS. Edgy DC May 31 2009 04:21 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 31 2009 04:57 PM ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]="Edgy DC":1b88161f]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:1b88161f] The one constant... Omar's an idiot.[/quote:1b88161f] No, the constant is people feel the need to make up stuff he hasn't done in order to justify their pre-existing conclusion that he's an idiot. ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]Granted there have been plenty of injuries this year but he's responsible for constructing the team that shat itself the last two Septembers and is now hels together by duct tape, spit and gum.[/quote:1b88161f] So the injuries aren't his fault until the end of your statement when they are. And September is his fault but the other months don't credit him none. ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]With this payroll and in this market, that's not acceptable.[/quote:1b88161f] Not acceptable? You're a patch of tomatoes, not Donald Trump. None of us get to say what is and isn't acceptable except by opting out of fanhood. ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]A few doozies during his NY tenure... Re-signed Kris Benson to a three year, $22.5 million deal, plus $7.5 million club option Traded pitchers Heath Bell and Royce Ring to the San Diego Padres in exchange for Jon Adkins and Ben Johnson Traded pitchers Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom to the Florida Marlins for Adam Bostick and Jason Vargas Traded pitcher Brian Bannister to the Kansas City Royals for pitcher Ambiorix Burgos Re-signed pitcher Guillermo Mota to a two year, $5 million deal. Signed free agent pitcher Scott Schoeneweis three year, $10.8 million contract Re-signed Ollie Perez, 3 years, $36 million.[/quote:1b88161f] Yeah, I've been there. That has nothing to do with what I posted above. Edgy DC May 31 2009 04:23 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":18ylfzji]="Edgy DC":18ylfzji]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:18ylfzji] I hate to be that guy, but yeah... I just don't trust Omar's roster management in general.[/quote:18ylfzji] Great, but can we actually judge him based on facts? In the case of the three-catcher roster pinch, folks haven't been at all. Edgy DC May 31 2009 04:26 PM ="Elster88":iteus8rw]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":iteus8rw] As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does.[/quote:iteus8rw] Yes. That's what I was trying to say. That's why you don't always go long-term with the guy who is currently hot, no matter how much your manager loves him. I like your work LWFS.[/quote:iteus8rw] I do too. And that's a solid position. Long term, Castro's offense seems more predictable and dependable. The other factor, though, is his history of being unable to stay on the field. If the Mets trade off Santos and Castro goes down next week, don't believe for a second that folks wouldn't be calling Omar Minaya an idiot over that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 31 2009 04:27 PM ="Edgy DC":ulpsaveu]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":ulpsaveu]="Edgy DC":ulpsaveu]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:ulpsaveu] I hate to be that guy, but yeah... I just don't trust Omar's roster management in general.[/quote:ulpsaveu] Great, but can we actually judge him based on facts? In the case of the three-catcher roster pinch, folks haven't been at all.[/quote:ulpsaveu] Fair enough... and also regarding the injury history. It's just that given the track record, benefit of the doubt doesn't tend to be my mind's default setting re: personnel moves that seem like a toss-up, you know? (Hell, even the ones we were more or less universally applauding seem in retrospect possibly error-fraught, player-eval-wise... unless Putz turns it around, that is.) Elster88 May 31 2009 04:59 PM ="Edgy DC":1hzp0dq7]="Elster88":1hzp0dq7]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1hzp0dq7] As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] Yes. That's what I was trying to say. That's why you don't always go long-term with the guy who is currently hot, no matter how much your manager loves him. I like your work LWFS.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] I do too. And that's a solid position. Long term, Castro's offense seems more predictable and dependable. The other factor, though, is his history of being unable to stay on the field. If the Mets trade off Santos and Castro goes down next week, don't believe for a second that folks wouldn't be calling Omar Minaya an idiot over that.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] All good points. That's why I wanted was to keep them all. I guarantee we'll be using a non-Schneider/Santos catcher for important at-bats this year. Mark it down! Gwreck May 31 2009 05:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":6yn42k0u]The Maine trade aside, this team has very rarely received max value for its resources in trade.[/quote:6yn42k0u] I think they traded high on Jae Seo; Mulvey/Humber/Gomez; Mike Jacobs and possibly Yusmerio Petit as well. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 31 2009 07:04 PM ="Gwreck":8dyaa9rn]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":8dyaa9rn]The Maine trade aside, this team has very rarely received max value for its resources in trade.[/quote:8dyaa9rn] I think they traded high on Jae Seo; Mulvey/Humber/Gomez; Mike Jacobs and possibly Yusmerio Petit as well.[/quote:8dyaa9rn] Forgot about those. Those were pretty big. (For whatever reason, Santana and Delgado have stuck in the quick-sorting portion of my Met brain as FA signings.) PiggiesTomatoes May 31 2009 09:08 PM It's not just the Mets that have a weak foundation, look through the minors. Aside from a Fartinez and a couple of arms, there's no pipeline for talent either, unless you think you can poach it from other organizations. Hell, what a colossal scramble to find an adequate replacement at SS while Jose heals. I don't think there's a set of metrics you could define in which Omar rates well. I sure have no love lost for Willie R., but the way his departure was handled was also an incredible cluster f. These are all reflections on Omar and Prince Jeff. If he didn't look so much like his dad, I'd sware he was a Dolan. Edgy DC May 31 2009 10:01 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 01 2009 11:24 AM This is getting desperately silly. On the Mets system --- where do they rank? What does "There's no pipeline for talent" mean? Aren't they all pipelines for talent? A "couple of arms"? Arms are valuable things. And many observers didn't have Martinez as the top hitting prospect in the Mets system, so I don't think that "aside from a Fartinez and a couple of arms" comment is true. No more true than of many other systems. As for decrying the scarcity of talent in the Mets system, that's a strange thing to call a GM out for in thread about a trade that adds minor league talent. "Collosal scramble to find talent at shortstop." How many teams kick back happily when their top two shortstops go down with injuries? What's the collosal scramble? They promoted one guy and acquired another. What "metrics" are you using to define Omar Minaya's rating? Are you really aware of several different metrics to rate general managers? There was nothing wrong with the way Willie Randolph was fired. A game ended and he was fired after it. I don't know why this keeps coming up. It's such a non-issue apart from your agenda. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2009 06:01 AM They went 19-9 in May (there's a metric) while missing almost half the roster wtih injuries and getting valuable contributions from guys Omar picked up on the cheap such as Cora, Reed, Hernandez, Sheffield, Parnell, Santos, etc. I'm no Omariphile, but the only duds the guy's set off since last year are Ollie (who's been hurt) and I suppose, Green. Thole looks like he just might hit enough to be next year's catcher. Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:12 AM http://www.omirsantos.com/ metsmarathon Jun 01 2009 09:20 AM um, yeah, i clicked on that link and got this message: ]The site you have requested has been blocked by the CONUS TNOSC due to hostile content. metsmarathon Jun 01 2009 09:21 AM that's the CONtinental US Theater Network Operations and Security Center... i don't know what's on that website, really, but now i'm very curious. also wary. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2009 09:24 AM It's one of those sites supported 90% by ticket broker and gambling ads Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:28 AM Yeah, it's packed with ads. It opens with this big fat paragraph: (I tend not to read big fat paragraphs.) I found out about it from an e-mail requesting a link exchange. ]OMIR GOODNESS! HE DOES IT AGAIN!! HOW CAN YOU SEND HIM DOWN WITH HIM PLAYING LIKE A ROCKSTAR?...SIMPLE, YOU CAN'T! NEW YORK -- Omir Santos was supposed to go back to the minors once Brian Schneider came off the disabled list. The catcher played so well that he forced the New York Mets to change their plans. Santos hit a game-ending single in the 11th inning and also homered in the fifth, leading New York to a 2-1 victory over the Florida Marlins on Friday night. Santos was rewarded after the game when the Mets traded backup catcher Ramon Castro and about $1.4 million to the Chicago White Sox for right-hander Lance Broadway, ensuring the rookie will stay with the club when Schneider is activated Saturday. � Mets trade Castro to White Sox "On a night like tonight, when Omir Santos plays the way he has, it makes the decision easy for us," said general manager Omar Minaya, who acknowledged being surprised by Santos' speedy progress. Gary Sheffield led off the 11th with a single to left off Brian Sanches (1-1), who threw over to first several times to check on the aging slugger with David Wright up. After Wright struck out -- smashing his bat when he reached the dugout -- Sheffield stole second and went to third when Ronny Paulino's errant throw went into center field. "We knew that he was trying to inch off and take a bag there," Marlins manager Fredi Gonzalez said. "He still has that capability in him. We just threw the ball away. We threw the ball out of the infield, and got ourselves in a situation nobody wants to be in." Edgy DC Jun 01 2009 09:36 AM ="metsmarathon":3gno5t9q]that's the CONtinental US Theater Network Operations and Security Center... i don't know what's on that website, really, but now i'm very curious. also wary.[/quote:3gno5t9q] I saw this in a Matthew Broderick movie. The codeword JOSHUA should get you around their security. Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:39 AM Before shutting down the page, I scrolled down and found this: ] We are big fans of Omir Santos and purchased the rights to this domain in the instance that Mr. Santos would like his own website for fans to enjoy. We would be thrilled if Mr. Santos would contact us in regards to acquiring this domain. Given his contract amount, we did not want a corporate conglomerate to take advantage of Mr. Santos. We await your contact, in the meantime, "Let's Go Mets!!" themetfairy Jun 01 2009 09:49 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":q4spi60n]http://www.omirsantos.com/[/quote:q4spi60n] Don't click the link unless you've already consumed plenty of coffee.... PiggiesTomatoes Jun 01 2009 05:51 PM ="Edgy DC"]What "metrics" are you using to define Omar Minaya's rating? Are you really aware of several different metrics to rate general managers? Wins, losses, trophies organizational talent rankings (last item is surely subjective). Measured against the above criteria, Omar has underperformed. He, along with Bernazard and Johnson, has failed to create a sound organizational foundation. I love the Mets, though, and have for going on 40 years. We can agree to disagree. I appreciate your perspective and have no intention into getting into a point-for-point back and forth. You know what they say about arguing on the Internet. ;-) Edgy DC Jun 01 2009 06:01 PM OK, so you claim wins as a metric in your first sentence and then close with a graphic claiming wins are irrelevant. I'm no Minaya cheerleader. But I do want to deal in facts. What organziational rankings are we referring to? It just seems clearly from this transaction that he's set up to lose no matter (a) which transaction he chose, ( which catcher he moved, and (c) how it shakes out. The guy is being called ugly shit like idiot and moron and the logic is set up so there's no way out of it for him. PiggiesTomatoes Jun 01 2009 06:39 PM No mas. You win.

Beltran's tummy still hurts.

Yesterday on the radio Manuel was talking about Castro playing third or first as a backup. That scared the hell out of me.

He actually looks quite svelte this year. At least relative to his previous years. Check out the close-up next to Carmela in the Met lovin big shot thread. And yes, 3 is better than 2. I hope you're right about Santos.

I feel ya, I just prefer a more long-term strategy. Perhaps I'm not trusting Santos as much as he deserves.

I blame Reyes' Under Armor cleats.

Empire's on. Maybe I'll just watch that instead. Han's tauntaun just collapsed.

The first thing I think of is the almost grand slam in the last game of 2007. From my seat in the mezzanine it looked like it was gone off the bat. The second thing I think of is a gatorade cup upside down on top of his hat with a giant bubble gum bubble stuck on top, courtesy of the young prankster David. So long Blastro, I enjoyed your work.

="Swan Swan H":36obxq7w]What has Santos done to deserve being sent down? He should be the starter until he plays himself out of the job, if he ever does, and it was either one of the other catchers or a spare outfielder who needed to go.[/quote:36obxq7w] Wasn't he the only one of the three that could be sent down? I never know how all that stuff works. Yeah he didn't do anything wrong, but life sucks sometimes. I'm with CF. Send Santos down (or one of the other guys if possible). Keep all 3 in the organization. Our bullpen is just fine as is so Broadway is unnecessary. Was there any doubt that one of the following would happen: one of the three gets hurt, Schneider hits .150, or Santos' string of big hits ends? Now what happens when Schneider gets hurt again and/or Santos reverts to the career minor leaguer that he has been to this point, will Casanova and Sandy be back? Swan Swan H May 30 2009 11:04 AM Me, I'd rather keep playing the guy who is playing best. Elster88 May 30 2009 11:04 AM I feel ya, I just prefer a more long-term strategy. Perhaps I'm not trusting Santos as much as he deserves. Swan Swan H May 30 2009 11:06 AM Which would be keeping an oft-injured overweight catcher who has failed every time he was given more than two starts a week? Elster88 May 30 2009 11:07 AM He actually looks quite svelte this year. At least relative to his previous years. Check out the close-up next to Carmela in the Met lovin big shot thread. And yes, 3 is better than 2. I hope you're right about Santos. Swan Swan H May 30 2009 11:10 AM I think sending Reed down would have made more sense than any of this, but I'm not going to miss Castro all that much. Elster88 May 30 2009 11:11 AM Yesterday on the radio Manuel was talking about Castro playing third or first as a backup. That scared the hell out of me. Swan Swan H May 30 2009 11:13 AM Maybe that's what happened - Omar heard that and shipped Castro out before Jerry could actually do it. Frayed Knot May 30 2009 11:33 AM ="Elster88":1522zkwq]Yesterday on the radio Manuel was talking about Castro playing third or first as a backup. That scared the hell out of me.[/quote:1522zkwq] I think that was just speculation based on the question; 'So Jerry, what the hell ya gonna do with three catchers?' And that was part of the problem with keeping 3 catchers: none of them ever (well, hardly ever) played anywhere else and we've got too many defensive switches to cover to start skimping on outfielders. So yeah, depending on Santos & Schneider is a bit of a risk but, with only 110 or so games to go, it's not a crazy one and both Schneid & Castro will be FAs this fall. It would be nice if either Omir's big hit-making "skill" were to continue while his out-making rate declines, but I think we can live with this arrangement either way. smg58 May 30 2009 09:59 PM There are very few backup catchers who hit as well as Castro, but the Mets telegraphed their lost interest in him to the point where he was valueless. Neither Schneider or Castro would have had any difficulty clearing waivers if they were sent down, but they could (and would, since they're both legit major leaguers) refuse the assignment and become free agents. Whoever signed them would pay as much of the bill as the CWS are footing for Castro. This way we at least get something. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 30 2009 10:20 PM ="smg58":6bbjd94o]There are very few backup catchers who hit as well as Castro, but the Mets telegraphed their lost interest in him to the point where he was valueless.[/quote:6bbjd94o] I agree totally-- this has been par for the course for a while under the Omar regime. My knee-jerk reaction is that-- much like some problems we've had with proper player valuation-- that this is a flaw in the team's processes (specifically, 1 part personnel handling, 2 parts PR work). I'll allow, though, that-- to a significant extent, at least-- it's partially a function of having the world's biggest media megaphone amplifying any and all "controversy"/clubhouse news. That doesn't make it any less frustrating. (It does seem that the savvy move might have been to shop the hot hand-- selling high-- in conjunction with a minor-league arm to get something of real worth... but that would require finding a team that's worse at talent eval than this one that's got something we could use-- a tall task.) Edgy DC May 31 2009 06:25 AM Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect. Swan Swan H May 31 2009 06:59 AM ="Edgy DC":2kpk20g3]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of respect.[/quote:2kpk20g3] At least he is being credited for versatility. PiggiesTomatoes May 31 2009 02:04 PM ="Edgy DC":1366mozl]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:1366mozl] The one constant... Omar's an idiot. Granted there have been plenty of injuries this year but he's responsible for constructing the team that shat itself the last two Septembers and is now hels together by duct tape, spit and gum. With this payroll and in this market, that's not acceptable. A few doozies during his NY tenure... Re-signed Kris Benson to a three year, $22.5 million deal, plus $7.5 million club option Traded pitchers Heath Bell and Royce Ring to the San Diego Padres in exchange for Jon Adkins and Ben Johnson Traded pitchers Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom to the Florida Marlins for Adam Bostick and Jason Vargas Traded pitcher Brian Bannister to the Kansas City Royals for pitcher Ambiorix Burgos Re-signed pitcher Guillermo Mota to a two year, $5 million deal. Signed free agent pitcher Scott Schoeneweis three year, $10.8 million contract Re-signed Ollie Perez, 3 years, $36 million. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 31 2009 03:47 PM ="Edgy DC":3vwzq7ha]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:3vwzq7ha] I hate to be that guy, but yeah... I just don't trust Omar's roster management in general. I love what Omir's done so far. As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does. The "on the way out" song is one we've heard a LOT (Bell, e.g.); you don't tend to win many hands of poker when you telegraph how you feel about your cards. The Maine trade aside, this team has very rarely received max value for its resources in trade. Elster88 May 31 2009 04:06 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1yjs99m9] As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does.[/quote:1yjs99m9] Yes. That's what I was trying to say. That's why you don't always go long-term with the guy who is currently hot, no matter how much your manager loves him. I like your work LWFS. Edgy DC May 31 2009 04:21 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 31 2009 04:57 PM ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]="Edgy DC":1b88161f]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:1b88161f] The one constant... Omar's an idiot.[/quote:1b88161f] No, the constant is people feel the need to make up stuff he hasn't done in order to justify their pre-existing conclusion that he's an idiot. ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]Granted there have been plenty of injuries this year but he's responsible for constructing the team that shat itself the last two Septembers and is now hels together by duct tape, spit and gum.[/quote:1b88161f] So the injuries aren't his fault until the end of your statement when they are. And September is his fault but the other months don't credit him none. ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]With this payroll and in this market, that's not acceptable.[/quote:1b88161f] Not acceptable? You're a patch of tomatoes, not Donald Trump. None of us get to say what is and isn't acceptable except by opting out of fanhood. ="PiggiesTomatoes":1b88161f]A few doozies during his NY tenure... Re-signed Kris Benson to a three year, $22.5 million deal, plus $7.5 million club option Traded pitchers Heath Bell and Royce Ring to the San Diego Padres in exchange for Jon Adkins and Ben Johnson Traded pitchers Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom to the Florida Marlins for Adam Bostick and Jason Vargas Traded pitcher Brian Bannister to the Kansas City Royals for pitcher Ambiorix Burgos Re-signed pitcher Guillermo Mota to a two year, $5 million deal. Signed free agent pitcher Scott Schoeneweis three year, $10.8 million contract Re-signed Ollie Perez, 3 years, $36 million.[/quote:1b88161f] Yeah, I've been there. That has nothing to do with what I posted above. Edgy DC May 31 2009 04:23 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":18ylfzji]="Edgy DC":18ylfzji]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:18ylfzji] I hate to be that guy, but yeah... I just don't trust Omar's roster management in general.[/quote:18ylfzji] Great, but can we actually judge him based on facts? In the case of the three-catcher roster pinch, folks haven't been at all. Edgy DC May 31 2009 04:26 PM ="Elster88":iteus8rw]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":iteus8rw] As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does.[/quote:iteus8rw] Yes. That's what I was trying to say. That's why you don't always go long-term with the guy who is currently hot, no matter how much your manager loves him. I like your work LWFS.[/quote:iteus8rw] I do too. And that's a solid position. Long term, Castro's offense seems more predictable and dependable. The other factor, though, is his history of being unable to stay on the field. If the Mets trade off Santos and Castro goes down next week, don't believe for a second that folks wouldn't be calling Omar Minaya an idiot over that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 31 2009 04:27 PM ="Edgy DC":ulpsaveu]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":ulpsaveu]="Edgy DC":ulpsaveu]Omar's now been an idiot based on speculation that he might keep three catchers, an idiot based on speculation that he might farm Santos out, and now an idiot based on speculation that he undersold Castro by telegraphing his lack of resepect.[/quote:ulpsaveu] I hate to be that guy, but yeah... I just don't trust Omar's roster management in general.[/quote:ulpsaveu] Great, but can we actually judge him based on facts? In the case of the three-catcher roster pinch, folks haven't been at all.[/quote:ulpsaveu] Fair enough... and also regarding the injury history. It's just that given the track record, benefit of the doubt doesn't tend to be my mind's default setting re: personnel moves that seem like a toss-up, you know? (Hell, even the ones we were more or less universally applauding seem in retrospect possibly error-fraught, player-eval-wise... unless Putz turns it around, that is.) Elster88 May 31 2009 04:59 PM ="Edgy DC":1hzp0dq7]="Elster88":1hzp0dq7]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1hzp0dq7] As the previous 1000 ABs he had over the last half-decade are probably a bit more indicative of his abilities than the 100 he's had this year, my player-evaluation/between-the-games brain very much doubts it will continue, but my fan brain will continue to enjoy it while it does.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] Yes. That's what I was trying to say. That's why you don't always go long-term with the guy who is currently hot, no matter how much your manager loves him. I like your work LWFS.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] I do too. And that's a solid position. Long term, Castro's offense seems more predictable and dependable. The other factor, though, is his history of being unable to stay on the field. If the Mets trade off Santos and Castro goes down next week, don't believe for a second that folks wouldn't be calling Omar Minaya an idiot over that.[/quote:1hzp0dq7] All good points. That's why I wanted was to keep them all. I guarantee we'll be using a non-Schneider/Santos catcher for important at-bats this year. Mark it down! Gwreck May 31 2009 05:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":6yn42k0u]The Maine trade aside, this team has very rarely received max value for its resources in trade.[/quote:6yn42k0u] I think they traded high on Jae Seo; Mulvey/Humber/Gomez; Mike Jacobs and possibly Yusmerio Petit as well. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 31 2009 07:04 PM ="Gwreck":8dyaa9rn]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":8dyaa9rn]The Maine trade aside, this team has very rarely received max value for its resources in trade.[/quote:8dyaa9rn] I think they traded high on Jae Seo; Mulvey/Humber/Gomez; Mike Jacobs and possibly Yusmerio Petit as well.[/quote:8dyaa9rn] Forgot about those. Those were pretty big. (For whatever reason, Santana and Delgado have stuck in the quick-sorting portion of my Met brain as FA signings.) PiggiesTomatoes May 31 2009 09:08 PM It's not just the Mets that have a weak foundation, look through the minors. Aside from a Fartinez and a couple of arms, there's no pipeline for talent either, unless you think you can poach it from other organizations. Hell, what a colossal scramble to find an adequate replacement at SS while Jose heals. I don't think there's a set of metrics you could define in which Omar rates well. I sure have no love lost for Willie R., but the way his departure was handled was also an incredible cluster f. These are all reflections on Omar and Prince Jeff. If he didn't look so much like his dad, I'd sware he was a Dolan. Edgy DC May 31 2009 10:01 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 01 2009 11:24 AM This is getting desperately silly. On the Mets system --- where do they rank? What does "There's no pipeline for talent" mean? Aren't they all pipelines for talent? A "couple of arms"? Arms are valuable things. And many observers didn't have Martinez as the top hitting prospect in the Mets system, so I don't think that "aside from a Fartinez and a couple of arms" comment is true. No more true than of many other systems. As for decrying the scarcity of talent in the Mets system, that's a strange thing to call a GM out for in thread about a trade that adds minor league talent. "Collosal scramble to find talent at shortstop." How many teams kick back happily when their top two shortstops go down with injuries? What's the collosal scramble? They promoted one guy and acquired another. What "metrics" are you using to define Omar Minaya's rating? Are you really aware of several different metrics to rate general managers? There was nothing wrong with the way Willie Randolph was fired. A game ended and he was fired after it. I don't know why this keeps coming up. It's such a non-issue apart from your agenda. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2009 06:01 AM They went 19-9 in May (there's a metric) while missing almost half the roster wtih injuries and getting valuable contributions from guys Omar picked up on the cheap such as Cora, Reed, Hernandez, Sheffield, Parnell, Santos, etc. I'm no Omariphile, but the only duds the guy's set off since last year are Ollie (who's been hurt) and I suppose, Green. Thole looks like he just might hit enough to be next year's catcher. Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:12 AM http://www.omirsantos.com/ metsmarathon Jun 01 2009 09:20 AM um, yeah, i clicked on that link and got this message: ]The site you have requested has been blocked by the CONUS TNOSC due to hostile content. metsmarathon Jun 01 2009 09:21 AM that's the CONtinental US Theater Network Operations and Security Center... i don't know what's on that website, really, but now i'm very curious. also wary. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2009 09:24 AM It's one of those sites supported 90% by ticket broker and gambling ads Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:28 AM Yeah, it's packed with ads. It opens with this big fat paragraph: (I tend not to read big fat paragraphs.) I found out about it from an e-mail requesting a link exchange. ]OMIR GOODNESS! HE DOES IT AGAIN!! HOW CAN YOU SEND HIM DOWN WITH HIM PLAYING LIKE A ROCKSTAR?...SIMPLE, YOU CAN'T! NEW YORK -- Omir Santos was supposed to go back to the minors once Brian Schneider came off the disabled list. The catcher played so well that he forced the New York Mets to change their plans. Santos hit a game-ending single in the 11th inning and also homered in the fifth, leading New York to a 2-1 victory over the Florida Marlins on Friday night. Santos was rewarded after the game when the Mets traded backup catcher Ramon Castro and about $1.4 million to the Chicago White Sox for right-hander Lance Broadway, ensuring the rookie will stay with the club when Schneider is activated Saturday. � Mets trade Castro to White Sox "On a night like tonight, when Omir Santos plays the way he has, it makes the decision easy for us," said general manager Omar Minaya, who acknowledged being surprised by Santos' speedy progress. Gary Sheffield led off the 11th with a single to left off Brian Sanches (1-1), who threw over to first several times to check on the aging slugger with David Wright up. After Wright struck out -- smashing his bat when he reached the dugout -- Sheffield stole second and went to third when Ronny Paulino's errant throw went into center field. "We knew that he was trying to inch off and take a bag there," Marlins manager Fredi Gonzalez said. "He still has that capability in him. We just threw the ball away. We threw the ball out of the infield, and got ourselves in a situation nobody wants to be in." Edgy DC Jun 01 2009 09:36 AM ="metsmarathon":3gno5t9q]that's the CONtinental US Theater Network Operations and Security Center... i don't know what's on that website, really, but now i'm very curious. also wary.[/quote:3gno5t9q] I saw this in a Matthew Broderick movie. The codeword JOSHUA should get you around their security. Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2009 09:39 AM Before shutting down the page, I scrolled down and found this: ] We are big fans of Omir Santos and purchased the rights to this domain in the instance that Mr. Santos would like his own website for fans to enjoy. We would be thrilled if Mr. Santos would contact us in regards to acquiring this domain. Given his contract amount, we did not want a corporate conglomerate to take advantage of Mr. Santos. We await your contact, in the meantime, "Let's Go Mets!!" themetfairy Jun 01 2009 09:49 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":q4spi60n]http://www.omirsantos.com/[/quote:q4spi60n] Don't click the link unless you've already consumed plenty of coffee.... PiggiesTomatoes Jun 01 2009 05:51 PM ="Edgy DC"]What "metrics" are you using to define Omar Minaya's rating? Are you really aware of several different metrics to rate general managers? Wins, losses, trophies organizational talent rankings (last item is surely subjective). Measured against the above criteria, Omar has underperformed. He, along with Bernazard and Johnson, has failed to create a sound organizational foundation. I love the Mets, though, and have for going on 40 years. We can agree to disagree. I appreciate your perspective and have no intention into getting into a point-for-point back and forth. You know what they say about arguing on the Internet. ;-) Edgy DC Jun 01 2009 06:01 PM OK, so you claim wins as a metric in your first sentence and then close with a graphic claiming wins are irrelevant. I'm no Minaya cheerleader. But I do want to deal in facts. What organziational rankings are we referring to? It just seems clearly from this transaction that he's set up to lose no matter (a) which transaction he chose, ( which catcher he moved, and (c) how it shakes out. The guy is being called ugly shit like idiot and moron and the logic is set up so there's no way out of it for him. PiggiesTomatoes Jun 01 2009 06:39 PM No mas. You win.

="Edgy DC"]The problem in part is that there are no alternative songs people like to sing along to anymore at all. Not in the United States. Hey let's not have a sing-a-long at all then! I graduated kindergarten a long time ago. We can all sing together in karaoke bars. Let's go Mets chants fulfill my need for ritualistic tribal chanting at the stadium.