Vic Sage

i only use show tunes.

attgig wrote: I hope we have a clear direction of rebuilding vs contending, and the way the offseason is going thus far, it seems like more of the former rather than the latter. If we get stuck in a middle of the road course of neither nor, I just don't see much hope for anything great. Hopefully, Alderson doesn't sign anyone to a stupid contract (a la the castillo contract) that screws us up. we already have the Santana and Bay contracts to work around. exactly. this is why i support consideration of a Wright deal, at some point. So there is no confusion about what path we are on... either among fans, or within management. Its the lack of commitment to a long-term strategy that i fear most with the Mets. It's so easy to take half-measures, but that way lies the trap of perpetual mediocrity. Trying to "contend" when you don't have the talent (or budget) to do so simply sets up the fans for continuing disappointment and ultimately disillusionment, while costing the team top draft picks that the truly bad teams get, and encumbers us with middling contracts that keep us just short of affording top-line players when they come available. Sure, the "lets pretend to contend" approach can luck into a post-season run once in a while, but relying on luck is not a sustainable long-term strategy.

absolutely! Don't you realize that Pagan is curt flood reborn? He's just a leadoff man waiting to happen. And with Tejada obviously ready for 600 plate appearance backing him up atop our lineup, proven sluggers like Murphy and Davis should each have 130 RBIs by July. Certainly, the new OF dimensions will bring Wright and Bay back to their career peaks, and Duda is the homegrown monster masher we've been waiting for since Strawberry. Thole has shown every indication of being a perennial .300 line drive machine, adding pop to the bottom of our lineup. Clearly, this offensive machine is going to be a juggernaut. and pitching? don't even get me started!

HahnSolo wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: "Imagine if the Mets put a revitalized Wright, Pagan and Pelfrey, as well as a veteran reliever such as Francisco, on the trade market next July. Contemplate how much talent that quartet could bring back in deals. How much the Mets could expedite their rebuilding." I don't think it brings back nearly the haul that Davidoff seems to imply. I dont know... we got Zach Wheeler for 2+ months of Carlos Beltran as a RFer. I doubt Pagan will bring much, unless he's having a great year, but Pelfrey, even as just a middling mid-rotation innings eater, could still get us a decent prospect, as could Francisco (or whatever closer we pick up this year, based on their health/production through July). But Wright can terminate his 2013 option if traded, so he'd just be a rental too. So, to maximize the return, I'd wait until after the season, after picking up his 2013 option, before even thinking about moving him. Even then, you have to balance David's hometowny "face of the franchise" stuff against the return. But i wouldn't rule it out by any means. I guess it also depends on where we are on the rebuild curve at that point.

consider it? I'd insist on it. or at least trade them after arb. We'd be better served going forward to see what the kids can do in those slots, because the upsides of these guys is not impressive enough to wait around to see again, for the price.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Sandy said on Mets Hot Stove last night that the Mets offered Jose a incentive-based package that would have paid as much as the Marlins will pay him, but only if Jose remained healthy. I don't know when (or if) that offer may have been made, but that's what Sandy said. What i had hoped and suggested the Mets do was to make such a contingent offer such that, if healthy, Jose would make alot MORE than the Marlins offered. It's not enough to offer contingent money = guaranteed money. And i totally understand Jose turning it down for guaranteed money. I think, ultimately, Sandy will be proved right about Reyes' value in the long run, but in the short run its a PR disaster for the team, and whats going on now is just spin for the sake of damage control.

What is Pagan's status currently? signed, or arb eligible, or FA? I'm all for replacing Pagan, but if Sandy is willing to replace him with a cheap Nieuenheis-type player... guess what? we've got one already. Giving up Murphy for the Tigers' version of Captain Kirk makes no sense. Andy Dirks minor league numbers are similar though somewhat inferior to those of Murphy, and Murphy's major league production shows he's clearly able to do some things, but Dirks has yet to prove anything. This isn't even a lateral move; its just a bad idea -- offering superior talent for inferior talent is usually a bad idea, unless your just moving bad contracts. and usually even then.

Madden's opposition to Gil makes me rethink my own. Cuz if he's agin' it, i should be for it. certainly his reasoning is suspect: the fact is Hodges was no better than the fifth best player on his own team, which, even it it were true, still wouldn't disqualify him from the HOF, when you consider some HOF-laden teams like the mid70s Reds. It's not Gil's fault he played with Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Pee Wee Reese and Duke Snider. had less than 2,000 hits in 17-plus years in the big leagues which might be relevant, except it omits the fact that he averaged 30hr/90r/100rbi/280ba with a near .900 OPS and multiple gold gloves during the 12 years when he was a full-time player. Which i'll certainly concede may not be enough to put him into the hOF, but its not nothing, and its not summed up by saying he "had less than 2,000 hits in 17-plus years in the big leagues", nor by the following: and never led the league in any offensive category even once. which is probably true of many HOFers. The "Black Ink" test isn't the only criteria. And he was in the top 10 in HR for a decade. which, again, ain't chopped liver. Madden's comment also misleads by leaving out the fact that Gil lead in many DEFENSIVE categories, on more than one occasion, and even lead in "games played" a few times. But most glaringly, he also fails to mention the fact that the Vet Committee could also consider his managing career which, while brief, took a last place team to the championship. I don't know if all this adds up to a HOFer. If Tino Martinez finished his career with his home town Tampa Bay team, then became their manager and was responsible for their turnaround as a franchise, would he be HOFer, based on both factors? I don't know. And i don't know about Hodges, but the argument against Gil certainly isn't put forth convincingly by Madden, with his usual muddleheaded inarticulate craptacular journalism.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Maybe Vic pronounces "entire" with a southern accent. "En-tarr" exactly. I'm from south Brooklyn. that's the way we say it.

Maybe they actually thought they had a chance of resigning him, and didn't want to jeopardize that by dealing him then they're not venal, just stupid and incompetent. Because if $80m was going to be there maximum number, even those of us hanging around HERE knew that would never be enough. But I don't buy it; they saw the writing on the wall and just wanted to squeeze a few more sheckels out of us corn-fed hicks.

with their money gone, The Wilpons may sell or trade the entire roster.

they suck so much, they even fucked up the venally self-serving strategy of deceiving the fanbase so they could bilk us for a few extra dollars in August and September. This is a case of EPIC suck.

well, he's trying to take a glass-is-half-full kind of view. As an athlete in the midst of the situation, would you think he'd call out his bosses as assholes, and proclaim next season as an utter waste of time? No. He's making the "we'll rise to the challenge" statement. And that's fine. That's what i think athletes do, publicly. i'm more concerned with his typos. and his tweeting in general.

yeah, it could be raining.

i hear he's the second coming of Tim Bogar.

smg58 wrote: I don't see much point in keeping Wright. The difference between him and Murphy at third is much smaller than the difference in their salaries, and how long they'd be under team control. Short-term PR should not be as important as long-term best interests. Bourjos is one of the game's best defensive outfielders, and his bat is at least decent. Conger has some upside, too. I'd make that deal if it were offered, especially if we free up the full salary. We could fill a few pitching holes well with that. first of all, it won't be the difference between Wright and Murphy... it'll be the difference between Wright and whoever they use at 2b when Murphy moves to 3b... probably turner. I'd suggest that is a bigger dropoff, but that's not my point. Nor is the difference in salary relevant, because the Wilpons have made it clear that they're just going to put that difference in their pocket, not on the field. the issue is maximizing assets. If Bourgos and Conger are available now, with Wright coming off a poor and injury-riddled year and only available to a buyer for 1 season, they might do even better if David has a decent year. He'll still have 1 year available to deal, at the same salary. Now if you think Bourgos and Conger are so good, that an equivalent or better value won't be available to the Mets next year even if Wright is coming off a good season, then i'd agree. make the deal. But i don't think its true. there's always another crop of young blue chippers around, and if David reestablishes his A-S bone fides, he'll bring more in return. QED.

or, as Megdal said in the other thread: In other words, if Alderson had really valued Reyes at 5 years and $80 million, but no higher, there could only have been two reasons he didn't trade him in July: Either he believed the value he'd receive in return wasn't greater than the pair of compensatory draft picks the Mets will receive now that Reyes has signed elsewhere; or ownership had instructed him not to trade Reyes, hoping instead to extract whatever value it could from the tickets the team would sell by holding onto Reyes for a few months more. The former is awfully unlikely; shortstops hitting .341, as Jose Reyes was at the the trading deadline, are valuable commodities. What seems obvious now, if it wasn't at the time, is that the Mets' decisions about Reyes were all about short-term money.

yeah, unfortunately, me too.

Edgy DC wrote: If he's got to go, it'll be an issue of his affordability, or an overwhelming offer. We'll see. But starting from the must-be-dealt position undercuts a team's perspective and contaminates everything. i'm not saying he "must" be dealt. i don't even think he "must" be dealt. I'm saying it would be a good idea, after next season, if he's recovered some or much of his value, to cash in on it and sell high (for a change), and turn him into some blue chippers. Because he's the only significant asset we have to deal, and by the time we're any good, he's likely to be past his peak. You crack me up. "You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fucked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?"

Centerfield wrote: And you know what, if they weren't even going to make an offer, why didn't they trade him at the deadline? At least we'd have something to show for it. Six years at $17.5 a year is not unreasonable. If this was so far out of their range that they couldn't even get involved in the conversation, only an idiot would hold onto him. At the time, I remember thinking that the "Don't Trade Reyes" camp should have been more specific. They should have said "Don't Trade Reyes BUT MAKE SURE YOU CAN RE-SIGN HIM". Of course, I suppose that should have been evident and only an idiot would think otherwise. Fucking idiots. this is the part that irks me. Your franchise is drowning in so much red ink that a $100+m contract for Reyes is out of the question? Then how the fuck do you not move him? We got a real good pitching prospect for Beltran. We could've got something of similar value (or maybe better, considering Jose's age and production at the time) if the Wilpons determined that they couldn't afford him anymore. What changed between July and December? Nothing changed. Afraid of raising the white flag? What did you think the Beltran and K-Rod moves did? Did Reyes' presence keep you from losing $70m? I didn't think so. fucking idiots.

You get kicked out of TITTS or something? The principle behind TiTTS was that the Mets were a rich big-market franchise that could outspend its opponents and so didn't have to rely on building through the minors, as other more franchises with less resources did. You let other major league teams become your farm teams. Of course, you still had to make good decisions and spend wisely, and with Minaya, we didn't. Ironically, now that we finally have a GM i trust, we're clearly not being operated like a rich big-market club anymore, so TiTTS is not the philosophy to adopt right now. Now, instead, its time to maximize value and turn as many guys 30+ into younger assets with higher upside.

Yes, Ike Davis seems like a legit 2-way player, with significant minor league production (and bloodlines, for whatever that's worth) to back up his major league production so far. But I'm not confident in Duda being an everyday OFer, nor Tejada providing much with the bat, long term. Nor am i salivating over Murphy's future, either. No, I don't think that's the core of a championship team. We're going to need to make some moves to find such core guys, and Wright's the only guy on the roster who is (1) likely to net us a young stud or 2, and (2) will be an expensive FA over 30, by the time we're any good again.

With regard to his contract, then, if all Wright can do is "void" the 2013 option, then presumably the Mets can wait and exercise the option after 2012 season, and THEN trade him. He'll still be available to another team for only 1 full year (just as he would this off-season), and in theory he could enhance his value by coming off a better year (playing in Citi in 2012 with the fences in and, hopefully, healthy). So i say play him this year, trade him afterwards. With Bay and Santana not coming off the books until after 2013 (both with vesting options for 2014), they'll likely be unmoveable... but David won't. We may be able to get players of value for him.

yeah, i've put sports on the backburner of my life, other than watching my daughter play softball (and trying unsuccessfully to avoid watching my son play baseball), and reading some articles, and this forum. I'll watch part of a football game, but the second i see the Jets play like... well, the Jets, i usually flip the channel (to avoid flipping the whole tv out the window). And now the Knicks are back, but really... i'm only going thru the motions of caring. its just gotten to the point where it all causes me more pain than joy. so no thanks.

Edgy DC wrote: Rebuild to what? They're already among the youngest teams in the league. yeah, but not the cheapest, with Bay, Santana and Wright still on board. and there's a difference between being up and coming, and just young.