Centerfield

none of the things you said there are factually supported. sorry, not 'none'. but starting with 'cespedes wants surgery' You really don't read do you? As I stated above, this is what I think happened:

I would guess Jeff Wilpon is in charge.

Ceetar wrote: Of course the Mets knew. That's what I've been saying. Each time I end up in an argument with you I tell myself it's the last time. It's incredibly frustrating. I don't think you're even bothering to read what I write. Then why are we asserting that the Mets were blindsided by Cespedes mentioning the surgery? They weren't. They merely, as usual, were clinging to the conservative approach and hadn't talked about the surgery. Hey reporters, can someone ask Cespedes if he felt this heel pain in the minors last week? Or do we have the DL to blame/thank for even knowing about this? If the Subway Series had been at Citi and they hadn't activated Cespedes, would he have just been scratched from a Vegas rehab game and then they'd have had this discussion privately? Again, it helps to read my posts if you are going to engage in any sort of discussion, and especially if you are going to disagree with someone. As I stated above, this is what I think happened: *Cespedes has heel spurs. The diagnosis was given long ago, certainly by 2017. The doctors recommended conservative methods, and if unsuccessful, surgery. Cespedes and the team are aware of this. They both elected conservative methods. No one says anything about the heel condition. *2018. Conservative methods haven't worked and the problem persists. Cespedes has tried tried playing through pain and now wants surgery. The Mets want him to continue to play through pain. The Mets tell him to continue to say nothing about the heel condition and rehab to get back in 2018. *Sandy Alderson, despite knowing the debilitating condition that Cespedes has, never makes it public. Instead, openly questions the integrity of his star player. A guy who has been playing through pain. Gives the strong implication that Cespedes is dogging it. *Cespedes hears that. And is rightfully pissed. Decides that he's no longer going to play through pain, and that he's done listening to the Mets. *In his first game back, he drops the bombshell. He needs surgery. Mets are caught off guard, not because they didn't know he needed surgery, but because they didn't think he'd go to the press and make it public. *Mets don't know what to do. 24 hour gag order. *A day later, the Mets spin it and say they are sending him to a specialist. They know what the diagnosis is. They know how it's going to end up. They are just trying to figure out a way to save face.

Nymr83 wrote: Because this is how negotiation is done. This how you maximize returns on an asset. By making sure everyone has a chance to bid. If you don't understand that then you are not in a position to have an educated discussion on the subject. that just isn't true. there are other ways to deal. you can take the used car dealer approach "this Familia is available now for these prospects but don't walk off the lot! i've got another guy ready to buy and Familia won't be here if you come back later!" which is to say artificially inflate the value and make the need to act now seem pressing before the other GM has the chance to call all the others sellers and see if he can get a better reliever for the asking price. i am not saying the Mets executed that strategy well, only that it is one of many strategies that someone (not them) could successfully employee. Hokey sales techniques aimed at uneducated buyers do not work on sophisticated GM's of Major League baseball teams. Billy Beane isn't going to fall for a sales pitch, follow Ricco into his office and sign the paperwork. Once a deal comes down the home stretch, a GM will explore all of his options, make sure that there are no better alternatives, then commit to the deal. This is basic due diligence, and the GM's of all teams do this. Well, the GM's of the other 29 teams will anyway.

Of course the Mets knew. That's what I've been saying. Each time I end up in an argument with you I tell myself it's the last time. It's incredibly frustrating. I don't think you're even bothering to read what I write.

It makes all the sense in the world to call around again if your goal is to maximize your return. It makes all the sense in the world NOT to call, if your goal is to unload the salary. The Mets would have been in an awkward position if another team offered more in return but demanded the Mets pay the salary. Basically, once Oakland agreed to take on the entire salary, that was it. Their main goal was accomplished.

It's not Jose's fault. But somehow he has gone from being a beloved home-grown Met, to the symbol of how fucked up the decision making process is in the Mets organization. It's just shocking. Meanwhile Dom Smith and Jeff McNeil waste away in AAA.

Ceetar wrote: I think the Mets had a pretty good sense of the other offers, and in particular, their stance of the guy they'd need to go with them. If they'd already had the conversation with the Mariners and were convinced that diPoto was under no circumstances going to part with that one prospect they really coveted better than what Oakland was offer, why call them back? Because this is how negotiation is done. This how you maximize returns on an asset. By making sure everyone has a chance to bid. If you don't understand that then you are not in a position to have an educated discussion on the subject. Keep in mind, this is not the first time this has happened to the Mets. Remember, rival GM's also expressed their frustration that they weren't aware that Scott Kazmir was available. And say what you want about the trade, it's utter foolishness to pull the trigger without fully exploring that market first. That trade was 14 years ago. Several regimes ago. The only constant is the name Wilpon.

First of all, no one is killing Cespedes for speaking. I'm doing just the opposite. I'm giving him tons of credit for going against these dickheads and going public with the heel spurs. Let's go back to that Sandy Alderson press conference a few months back. The one where he shakes his head and wonders why he isn't already back. BECAUSE HE HAS DEBILITATING HEEL SPURS IN BOTH HIS FEET THAT ARE LIKELY GOING TO NEED MAJOR SURGERY. THAT'S WHY. What a fucking dickhead. They told their star player to suck it up and play through pain, don't mention any of this to the media, then went and trashed him to the press and questioned his integrity. I guarantee you they were shocked when Ces went public. That 24 hour gag order wasn't because Ricco had another event. It's because they had no idea what to say. So they sent Callaway out there to pretend he didn't know anything. The poor guy. It's like they see he's toast, so they don't mind making him look like an idiot. So they regrouped, then came up with this bullshit story. It doesn't hold water. Anyone willing to look can see this.

Edgy MD wrote: I think the difference since Madoff is that not the owners are unwilling to spend beyond a threshhold, but that they haven't (or at least) been able to, because their creditors placed spending limits to guarantee that at the end of the season, there'd be enough revenue to service their debt. I think that era is effectively wrapped up, and the next GM will land in a much stronger position than Sandy Alderson did. Just curious. Why do you think that era is wrapped up?

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Ceetar wrote: Anyway, my concern about the Familia deal is that they set a target and jumped as soon as the offer topped that. You're setting Familia's value yourself that way, rather than the market setting it. Of course, I'm not the one talking to the other teams and getting a sense of his value, as I'm sure the Mets have been doing for months. I also don't believe said other GM through Bowden that they would've topped Oakland's offer. I also peg the percentage that that GM is Jerry DiPoto at like 70%. The quote wasn't that they would've topped it, but that they were surprised the Mets never game them the chance. Regardless, why wouldn't you believe it? Because it doesn't fit his narrative.

The initial course of treatment for this type of condition is typically conservative. Modifications in footwear, physical therapy, episodes of rest and efforts at pain management are all first steps before proceeding to surgery. The medical literature is consistent in recommending surgery as a last resort, in part due to the invasive nature along with the extended recovery time. Depending on the individual case, the recovery window can vary, even exceeding the eight- to 10-month time frame Cespedes referenced. The recovery is dictated in part by how extensive the surgery is; the more debridement (or cleanup) of the tendon required to remove the calcific deposits or repair the tendon, the more complex the healing process. Then there is the element for an elite athlete such as Cespedes that involves reintegrating to sport and addressing any compensatory mechanics that were present before surgery. These higher-level rehabilitation components are not easy steps, nor are they quick. When assistant general manager John Ricco spoke with reporters Sunday, he said the heel condition predates Cespedes' time with the Mets, referencing the chronic nature of the condition. Ricco reiterated the notion that surgery is a last resort after conservative treatments have been exhausted. "The surgery is fairly radical, it's going to put you out for a while, so it's not something that you look to do immediately," he said. Ricco went on to say the Mets will have Cespedes evaluated by their medical staff, and, given that Cespedes raised the issue of surgery, they will take it seriously. More of the quote. Let's understand the story Ricco is trying to peddle here. *The Mets and doctors have known about Cespedes's heel condition since before he ever signed with the Mets. It's a chronic thing, and it is something that he and the Mets have always tried to manage. *This weekend, for the first time, Cespedes has raised the issue of surgery. *Since Cespedes, seemingly on his own, has raised the issue of surgery, he is now going to see a foot specialist. We are told to keep in mind that surgery is a last resort, and conservative methods are recommended first. If you are to believe that story, that means that despite Cespedes having missed the bigger chunk of two years, and the team knowing all along that there were heel issues, that the conservative methods have not yet been employed. That somehow the team and Cespedes knew the heels were hurting, but never thought, hey, maybe we should try orthotics or episodes of rest. We are also led to believe that Cespedes raised the issue of surgery. Not any team doctors. Not any trainers. That this athlete from Cuba has raised the issue of surgery, and seemingly knows the recovery time. And now that he's raised the issue, he is going to see a specialist for the first time. I feel like I'm in some bizzarro world. The team's story, their excuse, their explanation for their incompetence, is that Ces has a chronic heel problem, but for two years, they didn't send him to a specialist, and are just now, going to try the conservative methods. This is beyond stupid. We all know what happened here. Ces has heel issues. Everyone knows it. When these leg problems arose in 2017, Ces saw team doctors. The doctors gave the diagnosis. Heel spurs. Conservative methods and rest were recommended. If that doesn't work, surgery as a last resort. No one wanted to go the surgery route. So Ces tried the conservative methods and rested. He rested until the pain died down enough, and then played through pain, and hoped to do so again in 2018. 2018 arrived. After a while, the heel problems came back. And so did the leg injuries. Ces rested, and rehabbed. It hasn't worked. Ces's heels are still "on fire". A frustrated Ces is resigned to the fact that surgery is necesary. Says so, but the Mets disagree. The Mets want him to play through the pain. They are at odds. Sandy, and the higher ups, call him out. Shame him publicly for being soft, or dogging it. Privately, they tell him they are not on board with the surgery and they won't sign off on it. This hurts Cespedes. He has been dedicated to the team and played through pain. He has no idea why they would call him out like that. He makes up his mind that he's going to throw the organization under the bus. Comes back, gets in front of the media. Drops his bombshell. I'm not soft. I'm fucking hurt. I need surgery. He knows full well the fan base will blow up. The Mets are caught with their pants down. They never expected Cespedes to go public. 24 hour gag order while they try to scramble for a story. This mess from Ricco is all they can come up with. Instead of coming clean, they decide to tell the public that he has not yet seen a specialist, and that they are going to try conservative methods starting now. Give me a fucking break.

Our owners' interests are not aligned with the fans. They haven't been since Madoff. The fans' interests are, and have always been, to become the best team in baseball, to win for a sustained period, and win championships. The owners' interests are to feign a commitment to winning while turning enough profit to stabilize their finances so they won't be at risk of losing control of the team.

It's not the games ceetar. I'm talking about: *Our best hitter having a long-term debilitating injury *Communication problems leading to conflicting messages from management and player *Our team's preference that the player, instead of correcting the condition, play through pain in a lost season, like Carlos Beltran nearly a decade earlier *Middling returns on the best reliever in Mets history. Failing to maximize returns by again, asking the other team to take on the salary *all of the foregoing suggesting an inability to learn from past mistakes *Demoting Dom Smith, when he should be collecting as many ABs as possible *Playing Jose Reyes over Jeff McNeil

Ricco noted that a team doctor examined Cespedes in Florida last month, and "it was the same diagnosis" that the conservative options should first be explored. An argument can certainly be made that the Mets may as well have Cespedes do the surgery since they will miss the playoffs, but the Mets aren't there just yet. Cespedes said the surgery would sideline him for eight to 10 months, which would compromise his availability for next season. Next year will be the third year in his fourth-year deal. “It depends on definition of bad days and how frequent those bad days occur. He’s had the condition for years – he’s played," Ricco said. "So that’s part of the decision we have to make, along with the medical advice, as to is it worth shutting him down for that length of time because the bad days are too frequent and too painful for him to continue?" https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/mlb/mets/2018/07/22/mets-claims-there-no-disconnect-slugger-yoenis-cespedes/816870002/ I wonder if Carlos Beltran is watching all of this, and if he thinks to get on the phone and tell Ces to just have the surgery. I would think that if the bad days keep him sidelined for two months, then he comes back, DH's one game, and is unavailable again, that yeah, there are too many bad days.

Maybe I'm just overreacting from a particularly disheartening weekend, but I am less and less convinced that the Mets can contend in 2019. I was just taking an inventory of my thoughts on the direction of this franchise. In all my years as a fan, I don't think I've ever been more at odds with their thinking. And to think I used to defend the Wilpons when they were vilified in the Doubleday/Wilpon dispute. I guess I always suspected that those cartoonish characterizations of the miserly Wilpon was couched, at least in part, by anti-Semitism. And maybe they still are, but now given the mountain of actual evidence, I just don't see a way out for this franchise.

Edgy MD wrote: When he had his splitter and slider working at the same time, he was untouchable, but he seemed shy about continuing to use the splitter. You have to wonder if it caused discomfort for him or something, because it was nasty.

Ricco says the surgery is a “last resort”. Basically telling Yoenis to play hurt. Mind boggling. It really is Beltran all over again.

Lefty Specialist wrote: Dunno, I'm not as big a fan as some others. Got the yips at some inopportune times. Using him three days in a row or for a second inning often portended disaster. Agreed that the Mets defense didn't help him out but sometimes you've got to pick up that defense. Point taken. I think it’s hard to be a fan of relievers, especially closers, in general. All I know is when we were on the verge of beating Greinke and Utley in Game 5, I remember thinking there is literally no other relief pitcher in Mets history I’d want pitching here.

41Forever wrote: 41Forever wrote: I see quotes from Ricco and Omar. Who is Sherman accusing of hiding from the media? https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/mets-finalize-familia-trade-to-as-for-two-prospects-international-slot-money/286676828 They're press releases. Nobody has actually stood in front of reporters, partly because they'll also have to answer questions about Cespedes. Ah. Bad form. They should have someone there to take questions. Familia was an important player and they should have someone there to sell the deal. And, by this point, if they don't have points on Cespedes to answer questions, then they are a mess. What are your thoughts on the trade itself? Especially in light of Ricco’s comments the day before that they would eat salary in exchange for a better return?

Admittedly have not looked at the numbers so I may be reaching here, but I can’t think of a better reliever in team history. Best I ever saw anyway. Let’s sign him this winter.

Ceetar wrote: smg58 wrote: He's going for an MRI tomorrow with a visit to a foot specialist. This was probably what Cespedes wanted in the first place. I think quite the opposite. It really is amazing how entrenched you are in your thinking. I would think if I was as consistently wrong about things as you are I would start second guessing myself. But you. You just keep chugging along.

I mean John Ricco said literally the opposite to Tim Harley yesterday.

It’s hard to understand how a club can be this incompetent. First Beltran. Now Cespedes. Why on earth would any free agent want to play here.

So far 2018 is turning out a lot like 2017. But hey. But here’s to hoping 2019 will be different while we go about doing the same exact thing.